Calling ALL 441 Clone Experts!

[RemingtonSteel]

I have been tweaking and practicing on my new Ferdco Pro 2000 for the last several days without so much as a missed stitch.  Last night I thought I would try 4 layers of 11/12 oz veg tanned (5/8" thick stack), to see how the machine would handle that.  Good Idea, bad execution, as I used some older leather that was given to me and although not cracking by any means, it might have been a little too dry, and tough for this test.  At about 2 inches into the test piece, there was a loud thunk and the needle snapped in half.  So I removed the material, checked to make sure the shuttle area and race was clear of debris and installed a new needle. Upon bringing the needle down by hand, I noticed that shuttle did not appear to be in the correct position. Uh oh, timing issue.  I just happened to have watched Uwe's video on shuttle hook timing earlier in the day and even printed out his gauge templates on card stock to bring home from work. However upon further examination of the machine (after watching Uwe's video again), I believe that it is not a shuttle hook timing issue, but rather a shuttle driver timing issue.

Diagnosis/Observation:
When the needle bar is brought down to its lowest position, 25.9 mm above the needle plate, I believe that the shuttle driver should be in the farthest counter clockwise position with the tip of the shuttle hook sticking out about 1 mm. Then as the needle bar starts to rise, the shuttle should start to turn clockwise so the shuttle hook can catch the loop being formed in the top thread, as the needle rises. On my machine, with the needle bar down in its furthest position (26.5 mm), the shuttle appears to be a full 180 degrees off. When the needle starts to rise, the shuttle starts to turn counter clockwise, instead of clockwise.  That is why I am thinking that this is a shuttle driver timing issue. I did an internet search for this problem last night, but found no solution.

I am hoping that @CowboyBob, @Cobra Steve, @Wizcrafts, @SolarLeatherMachines, @Gregg From Keystone Sewing, @Uwe,  or any of you other 441 experts can point me to a solution for this issue.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

CLICK HERE to download engineers manual.

Sounds like it could be a connecting rod eccentric cam adjustment, see attached, 2.Adjustments page.

[CowboyBob]

Does the driver go back to the position it should be as you turn the handwheel more?

[RemingtonSteel]

1 hour ago, CowboyBob said:

Does the driver go back to the position it should be as you turn the handwheel more?

CowboyBob, yes, it does... the driver looks like it makes a complete cycle when I turn the handwheel one revolution,  just not at the correct time, or direction it should based on needle bar position.

2 hours ago, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

CLICK HERE to download engineers manual.

Sounds like it could be a connecting rod eccentric cam adjustment, see attached, 2.Adjustments page.

Gregg, Thanks for the reply.  Although the Ferdco Engineers Manual is for the most part identical to the Juki TSC-441 manual that I currently have, I appreciate the link none the less..  

It makes sense that it might be the connection rod eccentric cam, as after pouring through the Juki TSC-441 Parts List, it appears to be one of the only components that ties the "Needle Bar/Upper Feed Mechanism" assembly to the "Hook Driving Shaft" assembly. With two allen screws and a set screw, I find it hard to fathom that the eccentric cam could have slipped out of sync by approx 180 degrees (which I base on the shuttle position and the fact that it turns counter clockwise upon needle lift when the needle bar is at its lowest point.)  However, based on the torque of the motor which is multiplied by the speed reducer, I guess anything is possible.  Well that is at least one adjustment I can look at when I get home.

Edited December 4, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[RemingtonSteel]

So to test Gregg's assumption, this is what I am thinking:

If I am correct, the two allen screws along with the set screw of the connection rod eccentric cam (CREC), should be pretty visible from the back when the needle bar is down in its lowest position. If they are not, then Gregg's assumption is most likely correct.

If correct, I am thinking these are the steps I should take to correct the issue.

1. Set stitch length to "0".
2. Mark the (CREC) position on the shaft as a reference mark (to reset to this position if the following does not work.)
3.  Loosen the CREC screws and set screw.
4. Place the needle bar in its lowest position.
5. Rotate the CREC until the shuttle moves to its furthest counter clockwise position, with needle bar still in lowest position  - this should also bring the screws into position on the back.
6. Tighten the CREC screws and set screw - regardless of where the shuttle hook is in the raceway.
7. If shuttle hook is not in the correct position (tip sticking out 1 mm ), loosen the hook driving shaft crank screw and set to correct position.
8. Use Uwe's technique to check shuttle hook timing, and adjust if needed.

Do these steps sound right?
Can anyone verify that the CREC screws should be facing close to the rear of the machine when the needle bar is in its lowest position?

Edited December 4, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[RemingtonSteel]

7 hours ago, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

Sounds like it could be a connecting rod eccentric cam adjustment

And the prize money goes to @Gregg From Keystone Sewing! 

Gregg, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.  When I got home, and placed the needle bar in the lowest position, the connecting rod eccentric cam had the screws facing toward the front of the machine (yes, a full 180 degrees past where they should be.  So I started on the steps above, and when I went to loosen the two allen screws, I found that they were barely finger tight.  The only thing holding the cam in place was the single small set screw.  When the needle encountered too much resistance for the set screw, the cam shifted 180 degrees. I think maybe the previous owner made an adjustment and never tightened the two main screws with any torque. Once I loosened the set screw, i was able to align the reference dot on the cam with the reference line on the shaft.  That got me where I needed to be so that I could fine tune the timing using Uwe's technique.

Now it is sewing in forward and reverse like nothing ever happened. 

The only issue that I could think of mentioning right now is that the stitch length lever is very stiff to move up and down. Any recommendations to fix that issue beside a good oiling?

Thanks again to Gregg for his insight and pointing me in the right direction, and to Uwe for producing such a high quality video on needle hook timing.

 

[CowboyBob]

9 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

And the prize money goes to @Gregg From Keystone Sewing! 

Gregg, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.  When I got home, and placed the needle bar in the lowest position, the connecting rod eccentric cam had the screws facing toward the front of the machine (yes, a full 180 degrees past where they should be.  So I started on the steps above, and when I went to loosen the two allen screws, I found that they were barely finger tight.  The only thing holding the cam in place was the single small set screw.  When the needle encountered too much resistance for the set screw, the cam shifted 180 degrees. I think maybe the previous owner made an adjustment and never tightened the two main screws with any torque. Once I loosened the set screw, i was able to align the reference dot on the cam with the reference line on the shaft.  That got me where I needed to be so that I could fine tune the timing using Uwe's technique.

Now it is sewing in forward and reverse like nothing ever happened. 

The only issue that I could think of mentioning right now is that the stitch length lever is very stiff to move up and down. Any recommendations to fix that issue beside a good oiling?

Thanks again to Gregg for his insight and pointing me in the right direction, and to Uwe for producing such a high quality video on needle hook timing.

 

It will loosen as you use it more, it it's too loose it move down in reverse,but here's where the screw is.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

14 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Now it is sewing in forward and reverse like nothing ever happened. 

I'm fist pumping behind my keyboard.  Glad I was able to help.

[RemingtonSteel]

6 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

It will loosen as you use it more, it it's too loose it move down in reverse,but here's where the screw is

Thanks for the info and photo.  Mine has actually become tighter after the "thunk" the other night, and has not loosened even after oiling.  I have to place my palm under the knob and push it up or cup my hand around it to pull it down. I agree I don't want it moving around while sewing, but I do desire a little more ease in the lever when changing from forward to reverse and back.  I appreciate the photo, because as I was making my timing adjustments last night, I thought it might be the horizontal bolt on the left that controlled the stitch length lever tightness.  Much appreciated Bob!

Edited December 5, 2019 by RemingtonSteel

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Mine has actually become tighter after the "thunk" the other night, and has not loosened even after oiling.

Then some moving part in the stitch length/direction path is now binding against another part. 441 machines are robust and don't usually have bent shafts, but anything is possible after a hard stop that throws the timing out 180 degrees. It may help if you post a movie of the parts in motion inside the bottom inspection cover on the lower right front on the base of the machine. Somebody more familiar with the way things should move may see the problem and offer a solution.

[RemingtonSteel]

Wizcrafts, When I got home (well before I read your comment),  I turned the screw about 45 degrees and that loosened the lever up considerably to the point I turned it back about 25 degrees. The lever now takes about 5 lbs of force (measured with a digital scale) to move it up or down.  It looks to be about the same amount of force that I see used in video demonstrations of the 441 style machines.  I should note that it was pretty stiff before the thunk, and it may just have been my imagination that it got even stiffer. 

Tonight, I also replace the friction wheel on the bobbin winder, and wound a bobbin to test it out, and then sewed a couple feet of stitches. Between the two, I have not heard any sounds that would make me concerned that something was bent or binding. If anything, now that I completely re-timed the machine, I think it is running better than it did before. Otherwise, I would totally agree with your advice that a video would help diagnose if something was bent and or binding.

 

[Wizcrafts]

12 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

I have to place my palm under the knob and push it up or cup my hand around it to pull it down.

I have a Cowboy CB4500 and a good friend has a Cobra Class 4, both of which are now about 8 or 9 years old. From day one I can move the stitch length/direction levers on both machines with two or three fingers and they stay in place. If you have to force the lever up and down, it is binding or too tight somewhere.