Copper Rivet Issue

[Memphis514]

i am using #12 copper rivets and once I set this (with the proper tool) the washers are backing off and not setting properly.  What could be causing this?  Thank you.

[LatigoAmigo]

48 minutes ago, Memphis514 said:

the washers are backing off and not setting properly.

Can you post a photo so we can have a better understanding of the problem? Otherwise it is hard to imagine the root of the problem, i.e., rivet too long, etc.

[Halitech]

Are you cutting off the excess and peening the end over?

[Dwight]

3 hours ago, Memphis514 said:

i am using #12 copper rivets and once I set this (with the proper tool) the washers are backing off and not setting properly.  What could be causing this?  Thank you.

Best I can figure, . . . you are not doing it right.

Stick the copper rivet thru the leather, . . . put on the washer, . . . slip the tool over the end of the rivet and smack it with a mallet, driving the washer all the way down onto the leather, hit it again for good measure, . . . cut the copper off about an 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch above the washer, . . . peen with a ball peen just a minor bit . . . then use the little rounded out place in the bottom of your tool to make the rivet "purty".

I always do this on a piece of 1/4 inch steel laying on my work bench, . . . and often as not on top of my marble slab.  You cannot peen and set the rivet most of the time on a soft table top.

May God bless,

Dwight

[MikeRock]

Dwight,

I'd add one thing.  After cutting off, smack it once, to enlarge the shank.  Then begin the peening and then the 'purty' smack.  Sometimes when doing the peening around the top of the fresh cut the rivet might loosen a bit.  That's why the initial smack.

God bless

Mike

[bruce johnson]

On some batches of rivets the hole is the burr is a touch too large/shank is too small.  They don't have enough grip to hold in place once you nip off the excess shank  The burr falls off. Very aggravating and I've never found the cure. Some can blame a source but I've had it happen with a couple reputable suppliers too. 

[Dwight]

28 minutes ago, bruce johnson said:

On some batches of rivets the hole is the burr is a touch too large/shank is too small.  They don't have enough grip to hold in place once you nip off the excess shank  The burr falls off. Very aggravating and I've never found the cure. Some can blame a source but I've had it happen with a couple reputable suppliers too. 

Easy fix though, . . . center punch a couple places near the edge of the hole, . . . on opposite sides, . . . should grip then.

Course, . . . better idea is toss the bad ones and only use good ones, . . . even if it means tossing the whole package.  Few things are worse than trying to use a "raw material" that was not properly made, . . . and won't allow you to do the job you intended to do with it.  Grrrr

May God bless,

Dwight

[Memphis514]

6 hours ago, Dwight said:

Best I can figure, . . . you are not doing it right.

Stick the copper rivet thru the leather, . . . put on the washer, . . . slip the tool over the end of the rivet and smack it with a mallet, driving the washer all the way down onto the leather, hit it again for good measure, . . . cut the copper off about an 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch above the washer, . . . peen with a ball peen just a minor bit . . . then use the little rounded out place in the bottom of your tool to make the rivet "purty".

I always do this on a piece of 1/4 inch steel laying on my work bench, . . . and often as not on top of my marble slab.  You cannot peen and set the rivet most of the time on a soft table top.

May God bless,

Dwight

I am doing this exact process. I doubled checked that the washers are the right size and they seem to be, they only right on the top.   I tried some #9 and they worked fine.  They are the 1” copper #12 from Tandy. 

[Dwight]

3 hours ago, Memphis514 said:

I am doing this exact process. I doubled checked that the washers are the right size and they seem to be, they only right on the top.   I tried some #9 and they worked fine.  They are the 1” copper #12 from Tandy. 

My apologies to you then, my friend, . . . I have no idea then what is happening, . . . would probably just have to be there, . . . is there any saddle makers or other leather workers in your area?

I would search one of them out, . . . take the tool and the rivets with you, . . . or maybe even take them to a Tandy story.   My Tandy store has a manager who KNOWS leather and how to do the stuff with it, . . . he is my big resource.

Best wishes, may God bless,

Dwight

[480volt]

A couple observations, may or may not be relevant to your issue:

If the burr is too loose on the shank of the rivet, flattening it slightly using the flat side of your ball peen hammer and a steel plate will tighten it up and may provide a little work hardening.

If you set the burr down too hard, the compressed leather will push it back up again and the grip on the shank will be lost.The rivet shrinks a little as you peen it and will tighten up on the leather.

I find if the shank is too long, the interference fit is lost by the time the burr gets to the bottom.

I did a project using straight shank round head brass rivets and 16 gauge brass burrs that I hand made with a Whitney punch. Since the interference fit was minimal, I had to place the burr, cut the shank, expand the shank by striking it flat, drive the burr down a little bit more, and then peening it like normal. 

The shop head on these don’t show and were made flat because they are are inside the suspension system for a prop crown.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by 480volt

[zoomer56]

The rivets are from Tandy? Go back to the store and ask them to show you how to set those exact rivets. They are excellent people and will help you solve the problem.

[480volt]

15 minutes ago, zoomer56 said:

The rivets are from Tandy? Go back to the store and ask them to show you how to set those exact rivets. They are excellent people and will help you solve the problem.

Most of the folks at my local Tandy are just salespeople...

[toxo]

As 480volt said, a good smack with a flat hammer with the burr on something solid will do the trick. Mind you it's the cut off shank that does the holding once it's bashed down. Just have to make sure the burr is roughly where it's meant to be.

[Memphis514]

ok so apparently i wan doing it half right.  the girls at tandy said once i drive the washer down i should immediately clip and flatten the head.  it seems like i was ing with the rivet before doming the nub.  gonna try a few more and see if i can get the issue resolved.  

thanks everyone for the advice.  learned a few things lol

12 hours ago, Dwight said:

My apologies to you then, my friend, . . . I have no idea then what is happening, . . .

oh no worries bro.  you were right in a sense .  i was following the same directions just not in that order i guess  lol   thanks for the help

[Dwight]

You're fine, Memphis, . . . I never could figure out how those copper rivets came out so really pretty on some stuff, . . . 

An old saddlemaker showed me 1st the tool, . . . then 2nd how to use the tool.  I would have been up the proverbial creek if he had not taken the time to show me how to do it.  

Glad you got the goods this time, . . . happy riveting.

May God bless,

Dwight

[480volt]

If you start setting a lot of rivets, you may want a set of Bob Douglas’ rivet setting tools. One tool sets the burr, one domes the shop head and one domes the factory head, though most of the time I don’t bother with that.

 

[Memphis514]

issue fixed guys...once i set the washer i immediately cut the post and domed the nub.  its all good.  thank you for all your help