Thoughts on used machines?

[Rodzhobyz]

Hello from West Tn. 

I enjoy collecting vintage domestic sewing machines but that is the extent of my working knowledge of sewing machines and am in the market for a cylinder arm machine for leather work. 

Holsters would be the the heavier end of things I might expect to make. 

 There is a local industrial sewing machine business that has scaled back from servicing large manufacturers to just selling second hand equipment to individuals and a used Juki 341 complete with a servo motor, speed reducer, and choice of a few different styles of tables can be had for $1300. 

  I was set to purchase one and after about 2 minutes of trying it out on 3 layers of +-1.5 mm leather it made a little racket & jumped time and the shuttle had gone from about a 8:00 position to maybe 6:30 (if needle is @ 9:00). 

I'm not sure a 341 with it's 3/8" stitch capacity is really up to holster making anyway, should I ever make them, but, that brief experience with the used machine has me considering buying new,  like one of the Chinese offerings such as a Cowboy 341 or?  which I think claims to sew up to 7/16" thick leather and from all I've read here, owners are happy with the machines and service provided. 

 I am mechanically inclined to learn to repair most anything and if learning and tuning a used machine will save me a nice percentage, as long as it's not more tuning than sewing, I'll probably go that route, especially since I will be servicing whatever machine I end up with myself anyway. 

If I thought the Juki 341 were built anything like an old Singer 15-91, which is as near bullet proof and reliable as any machine I'm aware of, it'd be a no brainier, but if it's just as likely to be completely worn out and subject to constant break down, I would probably be better off spending double on a new one.  

Anyone with experience that cares to offer an  opinion would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks, Roger. 

  

 

[dikman]

Have you read Wiz's sticky at the top about what you need to sew leather? It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting a leather sewing machine. You'll also get lots of opinions, including mine.

With 3/8" clearance that would equate to your typical upholstery-class (medium-weight) sewing machine, and probably limited to #138 thread max. You mentioned the magic word - holsters. That immediately puts you into the heavy-weight class. If you look up the Cowboy 3200 the specs are probably the minimum you would be looking at, next up is the Cowboy 4500. There are other equivalent brands, of course, I only mention these as a starting point.

There are other options, of course, as some of the older Singers can handle heavy leather, but finding them could be an issue.

You will be faced with the same problem all newcomers face, there is no one machine to do it all. If you want to make bags, purses, wallets, dress-belts then an upholstery-class machine will be fine but once you decide to move into heavier stuff (gunbelts, holsters etc.) you WILL need a heavier machine - or handstitch them.

[Rodzhobyz]

3 minutes ago, dikman said:

Have you read Wiz's sticky at the top about what you need to sew leather? It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting a leather sewing machine. You'll also get lots of opinions, including mine.

With 3/8" clearance that would equate to your typical upholstery-class (medium-weight) sewing machine, and probably limited to #138 thread max. You mentioned the magic word - holsters. That immediately puts you into the heavy-weight class. If you look up the Cowboy 3200 the specs are probably the minimum you would be looking at, next up is the Cowboy 4500. There are other equivalent brands, of course, I only mention these as a starting point.

There are other options, of course, as some of the older Singers can handle heavy leather, but finding them could be an issue.

You will be faced with the same problem all newcomers face, there is no one machine to do it all. If you want to make bags, purses, wallets, dress-belts then an upholstery-class machine will be fine but once you decide to move into heavier stuff (gunbelts, holsters etc.) you WILL need a heavier machine - or handstitch them.

Thanks and yes I mis stated the model earlier but the Cowboy 3200, not 341 seems the best candidate for me right now at least budget wise, if I go with a brand new machine.  

 Since I don't anticipate this being a profitable endeavor for me, just another means of wiping a work week off the books and crafting a few gifts, Im not committed to making holsters, but would rather have a little heavier equipment than absolutely necessary, at least to the point I can still stitch lighter +-2oz material. 

 I'm more looking for thoughts / opinions on buying used American and Japanese equipment vs the new Chinese models than the particular model ect I will need. 

Cheers, Roger

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, Rodzhobyz said:

at least to the point I can still stitch lighter +-2oz material. 

The 3200 is still a fairly heavy weight machine and in my opinion I would not want to use it for anything under 5oz (2mm). The leather point needle range does not go very small is just one of the issues. Getting the thread knot to be hidden on thin leather is not possible with thin leather and thick thread. 

I cant say what problems the Juki 341 had that you looked at but it should of had no problem handling that stitch job. Check this machine at Solar out  http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb341

There is a lot of videos out there that show this machine in action.

ANYBODY with a 3200 thinks different to what I said above please say so.

[Wizcrafts]

The CB3200 is a "441 clone," meaning it is based upon the Juki TSC-441 heavy duty stitcher. It has similar specs as the CB3500 and 4500 and Cobra Class 3 and 4. These machines are designed to sew firm leather (or webbing, or Biothane) from at least 6 ounces and up, with thread sizes #138, #207, #277, #346 and #415 (all except the CB3200). The thickest the 3200 sews is 1/2 inch while the others max out at 7/8 inch.

The CB341 is a medium-heavy duty walking foot machine that sews from about 3 or 4 ounces up to about 7/16 inch of medium temper leather or fabric. It can handle thin to middle weight thread from #46 through #207. Technically speaking, you can sew pancake style holsters with #207 thread.

[JRodz]

Rodzhobyz,

I have bought all of my machines used except for my Cobra 4. The other machines I have are: Singer 111W156, 111G156, 111W155, 31-15, 29K62, a Juki DDL-555, a Tipmann Boss. All of these machines are still widely used and parts are readily available, therefore, I didn’t hesitate. When I bought my first machine I was on here reading and trying to learn as much as possible. I had no clue how the machines worked, what to call things, or anything else about machine sewing. All of the moderators and regulars on here are great and have a lot of wisdom to share. I also bought videos and training material from Ron Kerbes which gave me the confidence to maintain, tune, repair, and rebuild machines.

Long story short, as long as parts for the used machines are available and you are confident that you can learn from the guys here and others via videos; buying used shouldn’t be a problem. Just be sure to look closely and avoid obvious train wrecks.

 

[Rodzhobyz]

16 hours ago, dikman said:

Have you read Wiz's sticky at the top about what you need to sew leather? It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting a leather sewing machine. You'll also get lots of opinions, including mine.

With 3/8" clearance that would equate to your typical upholstery-class (medium-weight) sewing machine, and probably limited to #138 thread max. You mentioned the magic word - holsters. That immediately puts you into the heavy-weight class. If you look up the Cowboy 3200 the specs are probably the minimum you would be looking at, next up is the Cowboy 4500. There are other equivalent brands, of course, I only mention these as a starting point.

There are other options, of course, as some of the older Singers can handle heavy leather, but finding them could be an issue.

You will be faced with the same problem all newcomers face, there is no one machine to do it all. If you want to make bags, purses, wallets, dress-belts then an upholstery-class machine will be fine but once you decide to move into heavier stuff (gunbelts, holsters etc.) you WILL need a heavier machine - or handstitch them.

Thanks and yes I mis stated the model earlier but the Cowboy 3200, not 341 seems the best candidate for me right now at least budget wise, if I go with a brand new machine.  

 Since I don't anticipate this being a profitable endeavor for me, just another means of wiping a work week off the books and crafting a few gifts, Im not committed to making holsters, but would rather have a little heavier equipment than absolutely necessary, at least to the point I can still stitch lighter +-2oz material. 

 I'm more looking for thoughts / opinions on buying used American and Japanese equipment vs the new Chinese models than the particular model ect I will need. 

Cheers, Roger

[Wizcrafts]

3 minutes ago, Rodzhobyz said:

I'm more looking for thoughts / opinions on buying used American and Japanese equipment vs the new Chinese models than the particular model ect I will need.

American built machines include Campbell-Randall Lockstitch, Union Lockstitch and Puritan Chainstitch machines, none of which will sew a couple ounces of leather. They are super heavy duty machines. The Lumberto Classic did advertise that their machine could sew a few ounces, but they went out of business. There are still a few Number 9 machines floating around that the Lumberto is cloned from. I saw one at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines last year.

As for Japanese built machines you have Juki and Seiko. I can't say with certainty that all models of Seiko are still built in Japan. Their North American brand name is Consew and the most recent models are made in China.

You can get all the answers you need by calling one or more industrial sewing machine dealers. Some of them advertise with us, as seen in the banner ads on top of each and every page. Those ads keep this forum alive.

[Rodzhobyz]

I very much appreciate every bit of input everyone has offered.

Sometimes the same information with a different phrasing can shine a little more light on a subject. 

I have no illusions and no doubt that I am about to purchase but the first of multiple machines that will eventually be required if I am to work with the entire range of possibilities that leather crafting offers. 

 This being a relatively new hobby for me, I can't be sure how deeply I may go into it, so was hoping to wet my feet and develop skills starting with less expensive - used equipment, especially since Im no stranger to a wrench. 

 The problem I encountered while test sewing the used Juki 341, after further research, I have just about determined that the machine did not in fact jump time, but likely was user error that caused thread to jamb in the bobbin / shuttle and caused the safety clutch to engage.

  The rep I was with at the time, who stayed after hours until I could get there, was not familiar with the machine and asked me to return the next business day and they would have the problem corrected. 

 I am feeling a little better about maybe going with the used machine, especially with parts so readily available and many resources to learn from plus there is no new machine dealer less than about a 5 hr drive one way from me that I have been able to find. 

 Provided it in reasonably good condition, surely a Juki 341 would be an asset in any leather shop and one that I wouldn't out grow for the range of work it is designed for?

[Wizcrafts]

16 minutes ago, Rodzhobyz said:

Provided it in reasonably good condition, surely a Juki 341 would be an asset in any leather shop and one that I wouldn't out grow for the range of work it is designed for?

The Juki 341 has been superseded by the LS-1341. Certain issues were resolved with the newer version.

The Juki 341 has been discussed on LW.N. Just search the Leather Sewing Machinbes forum for Juki 341 and read the problems and solutions. Here is one topic.

[Rodzhobyz]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

The Juki 341 has been superseded by the LS-1341. Certain issues were resolved with the newer version.

The Juki 341 has been discussed on LW.N. Just search the Leather Sewing Machinbes forum for Juki 341 and read the problems and solutions. Here is one topic.

Thank you Wizcrafts. But now that posts-topic  is almost enough to put me off of a used machine.

Not that I couldn't eventually determine the cause of and correct such an issue, but I have to assume that situation could be one of countless possible mechanical anomalies for which I am not yet prepared to effectively troubleshoot on my own. 

 This will require a bit more consideration. Since I am starting fresh, without local consult and have no desire to become a forum nuisance, I may be better off paying the premium for new equipment and the services provided rather than risk having to learn to be a qualified machine tech at the same time as learning to craft leather. 

Much to learn...

Thanks again, Roger. 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Rodzhobyz said:

This will require a bit more consideration. Since I am starting fresh, without local consult and have no desire to become a forum nuisance, I may be better off paying the premium for new equipment and the services provided rather than risk having to learn to be a qualified machine tech at the same time as learning to craft leather.

You will at least have free technical support from the dealer who sells you a new sewing machine (but try to not muck it up with self diagnosed failed repairs). I've bought countless machines and had to learn to fix them myself by trial and error (emphasis on error). I've only actually owned one brand new machine: a Cowboy CB4500. The dealer has never brushed me off, even though I bought it 7 years ago. Some dealers will offer the same level of support on rebuilt used machines they sell, but not usually on machines bought from other sellers, or which were sold as is.

Avoid buying from a drop ship middleman. Buy from authorized dealers who receive and unpack the machines, adjust them, fix any problems before shipping them and include a sewn off sample under the foot/feet.

[RemingtonSteel]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:25 AM, Rodzhobyz said:

But now that posts-topic  is almost enough to put me off of a used machine.

Don’t be so quick to write off used sewing machines.  

First let me state that I am a new user of leather sewing machines, but I am also a firm believer in buying the best of anything that you can afford. If you can afford a new machine, get one for all of the reasons stated above. If you would like something better than you can afford, then either wait until you can afford the better machine, or look for a used one in good condition. 

Personally, I like the best (for my purposes), but didn’t want to spend the money it costs for a new Juki 441 clone so I found a used one with little hours of use for about half the cost of a new one shipped to my door. Like you, I do this more as a hobby than a business so I couldn’t justify the cost of a new one.

A week into owning it, I had what sounds like the exact same problem you described above.  But with the help of the community (see post below) I was able to get back up and running in 24 hours. 

The experience (although a little scary, because I thought I had just created an expensive boat anchor), forced me to learn how the machine works, and retime it myself.  The machine now runs better than it did when I first bought it.

If I could offer one piece of advise to someone who purchases a used machine, it would be this: “When taking the time to clean and lubricate your new to you machine, make sure to check to see that all of the screws are tight, in the event some may have come loose over the years, like they had on mine”. If I had taken that step, I may not have had a problem in the first place; but then again I am grateful for all of the knowledge it force me to gain!