Historical western belts

[Mungo]

I’m wanting to make a bandolier or cartridge belt, and be as authentic as possible. I’ve been researching old west gear and noticed in the book, Packing Iron,  that the bullet loops on one belt(dated 1875-1880), page 93, appear to be attached with hollow rivets. I thought hollow rivets were a modern innovation, but apparently not. If any of you have the book have a look and tell me what you think. I’m seriously considering using these instead of sewing the loops.

[sinpac]

Can you take a picture of pg. 93? I would like to see it.

Chris

[Mungo]

Sorry, but I’m not sure I should do that due to copywrite laws. Maybe someone with access to the book can take a look.

[fredk]

As long as the picture put here is clear that is from the book and says it comes from it then it would be allowed as it is bring used for 'reference or research'. 

[Samalan]

I think i have two boxes of hollow rivetsthat date back to that time chance i get today i'll check a doctor gave me about one hundred leather working tools that belonged to hi great grandfarther among the things were lettersfrom the leather worker to leather purveyors of the time dated 1891and 1898  i have the book Packing iron fun stuff i'll take a look .

[fredk]

Here is what is being discussed;

The page 93 of 'Packing Iron' book.

As said by the OP the holster is dated 1875 to 1880.  Maker unknown

A close up of the belt showing on the right

The caption for the photo says the bullet loops are individually riveted to the main belt. The way the rivets are split where they are crimped over certainly makes them look like hollow rivets. I can't make out any rivet heads on the front side and it looks like rivets are filled with something - this could be just a century worth of grime and wax polish.

Sometimes, fittings can be found on things made much earlier than we reckon. eg. I was told that the 'Sam Browne' stud was invented about 1850 but I have seen them on equipment made in about 1812 - 1814 and a version of it on equipment from about 1646 -1650

[sinpac]

4 hours ago, fredk said:

As long as the picture put here is clear that is from the book and says it comes from it then it would be allowed as it is bring used for 'reference or research'. 

Yes I was just interested in the rivets. I was thinking if it is 100 years old they would be a rivet with a bur.

[sinpac]

7 minutes ago, fredk said:

Here is what is being discussed;

The page 93 of 'Packing Iron' book.

As said by the OP the holster is dated 1875 to 1880.  Maker unknown

A close up of the belt showing on the right

The caption for the photo says the bullet loops are individually riveted to the main belt. The way the rivets are split where they are crimped over certainly makes them look like hollow rivets.

Maybe a solid rivet drilled out and crimped over?

[fredk]

3 minutes ago, sinpac said:

Maybe a solid rivet drilled out and crimped over?

Too much work. Like us, back then the maker didn't want too much extra work. He would have used something handy and commonly available. I'm thinking a small calibre bullet shell, maybe a .22 or .177? Punched thru the leather the empty tube of the shell would have filled with the waste of the belt rather than removing it.

[sinpac]

2 minutes ago, fredk said:

Too much work. Like us, back then the maker didn't want too much extra work. He would have used something handy and commonly available. I'm thinking a small calibre bullet shell, maybe a .22 or .177? Punched thru the leather the empty tube of the shell would have filled with the waste of the belt rather than removing it.

Could be.

[sinpac]

That holster looks real familiar. I did a few but the patterns came from Simmons. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Northmount
Combined 2 posts

[chuck123wapati]

rivets back then could have been made by a blacksmith out of mild steel or bought they also had copper rivets. The one in the center looks like a copper rivet with a soft steel washer. On May 20, 1873, Levi Strauss secured a patent for his denim jeans with copper rivets so rivets were available for use.

Edited January 20, 2020 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

20 minutes ago, fredk said:

Too much work. Like us, back then the maker didn't want too much extra work. He would have used something handy and commonly available. I'm thinking a small calibre bullet shell, maybe a .22 or .177? Punched thru the leather the empty tube of the shell would have filled with the waste of the belt rather than removing it.

or just a round nail and a washer.

[sinpac]

I guess back then, what ever got the job done.

[fredk]

26 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

or just a round nail and a washer.

not so, if you look at the rivet, it is hollow and the edge has cracked as it was crimped over - this can be seen more clearly in the photo in the book.

Also, hardware like this was being turned out by machines since the 1780s. No smith would bother with making anything so small as a rivet - its too fiddly, too time consuming

[Mungo]

How much of the rivet (hollow type) should be protrude through the leather pieces? Using a 5/16”  rivet leaves a little less rhan 2/16”  coming through to be peened over. I should probably use a 7/16” rivet, yes? BTW Sinpac, those are beautiful California holsters.

[fredk]

Ideally you would want about 3mm or slightly more available to peen over - thats about 1/8 inch

[sinpac]

1 hour ago, Mungo said:

How much of the rivet (hollow type) should be protrude through the leather pieces? Using a 5/16”  rivet leaves a little less rhan 2/16”  coming through to be peened over. I should probably use a 7/16” rivet, yes? BTW Sinpac, those are beautiful California holsters.

Thanks Mungo

[dikman]

From the crimp side they look like eyelets. Just to confuse things I don't see any rivet heads between the loops.

[Mungo]

It looks like a rivet base between the loops  just to the left of the left-most bullet. I think. The photo in the book is slightly clearer than the posted photo.

[MikeRock]

In the book the rivet heads are distinct.  I had to put on a second pair of reading glasses to see them clearly, but they are there.  I am still puzzling over the inside.  It looks like the splash from the tube is there, but very finely divided.  I question how much holding power that minor bit of expansion has.  I can't resolve a washer on the inside no matter how hard I try.  Like putting a rack on a fat doe..... just wishful thinking.  Yet, it is obvious, the loops are still there 140 years later...  I'd love to talk to the collection owner and get first hand impressions of this belt. 

God bless

[dikman]

Well, I have the book and those rivet heads are doing a good job of hiding from me.

[fredk]

4 hours ago, dikman said:

Well, I have the book and those rivet heads are doing a good job of hiding from me.

from me too. But it may be the print of the book. Not all printings are the same. Mike's book may have a clearer print than ours

[Bert51]

I used a magnifying glass when real close a pictures, I blew this picture up until it distorted and I could not see anything clearly.

Bert.

[chuck123wapati]

23 hours ago, fredk said:

not so, if you look at the rivet, it is hollow and the edge has cracked as it was crimped over - this can be seen more clearly in the photo in the book.

Also, hardware like this was being turned out by machines since the 1780s. No smith would bother with making anything so small as a rivet - its too fiddly, too time consuming

Actually blacksmith apprentices made washers, rivets, and nails among other mundane parts, as part of their apprenticeship learning process and as busy work back in the day. 

6 hours ago, dikman said:

Well, I have the book and those rivet heads are doing a good job of hiding from me.

me too! and am wondering how one rivet in the center would hold down all the outer edges of the loop strap, seems it would pull away or cup at the top at least after awhile it has to be stitched also I would think.