Forward cant Western holster?

[dikman]

I need to make myself new holsters (for Single Action shooting) and it occurred to me that a slight forward cant (a la John Wayne's holster) might be interesting. Can anyone think of any reasons why this isn't a practical idea? Or would it be better to make them "normal" upright type? I'm hoping people with experience will chime in. I have a set with a rearward cant, patterned from Steve McQueen's in The Magnificent Seven, but as I draw and use a two-handed grip to fire it seems to me that a forward cant should make for smoother drawing.

[pmieras2000]

I don't see why it would be a problem. I build my holsters according to what the customer wants. 

[Josh Ashman]

I'm no SASS shooter, but from what I've seen many of their holsters are built with a forward cant. As I recall they have a rule saying just how much cant they allow but I have no idea how much that amount is. A member that went by "Red Cent" used to post a bunch on here with SASS rigs. You might search for his old posts or see if you can message him for info.

All the best, Josh

Edited January 29, 2020 by Josh Ashman

[wizard of tragacanth]

Straight drop versus canted... this is an interesting dynamic. I used to make all of my concealed carry holsters with the "traditional FBI 15° forward cant". Then I read something, somewhere, where a guy suggested that a canted holster does not make the draw smoother, nor faster and in fact, puts an unnatural bend in the wrist and slows getting the gun on target. With a straight drop, the wrist is locked and the gun is inline with the arm as it comes out and up, and it is ready for firing. Just try these motions without a gun or holster, mimic the action. I saw very quickly that he was right... well, that was my feeling anyway. Then I put my canted holster on and really became a believer. If you try this experiment, pay attention to where your elbow goes in each instance.  From a straight drop holster, the elbow goes straight back, very naturally. From a canted draw, the elbow goes out to the side and puts a strain on the shoulder... or at least in my case. Surely this is more pronounced on a holster worn with the trigger at belt level and less so on a holster worn lower, Western style. Still, it could be a factor. Try it out.

The forward cant does have some benefit in concealed carry because it effectively "shortens" a larger gun, allowing one to comfortably sit in a chair or car seat without the barrel pushing into it.  Also, when drawing from a seated position, the elbow is often blocked by the chair, so it cannot go straight back anyway, it must go out to the side.

nick

[RemingtonSteel]

Dikman, I am an active member of SASS, (I shoot with both "The California Rangers" and "The Outlaws"), and there is no good reason that I can think of not to have a cant.  Whether it is a forward cant or rearward cant is purely shooter preference.  The only factor that I can think of that would affect direction and amount of cant, is actual holster position in relation to the body.  If you wear your holsters at the 8 and the 4 o'clock positions (4 o'clock like the Duke),  then a forward cant might suit you.  However, if you were to wear those same holsters at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions (like many in SASS shooters here in the US are doing), a forward cant may be uncomfortable, and a negative cant, or no cant might be better suited to these positions.  When I made my last rig, I designed them with a 15 degree rearward cant to be worn at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions, as this was comfortable for me.  I have since moved my holsters to the 10 and 2 o'clock positions (I can see both holsters in my periphery at the same time with a slight head tilt down) , and the rearward cant makes for a more comfortable draw, at least for me.  So I would figure out, if you don't already know, where you want to carry your pistols, and then determine if you want a cant or not.  You can even hold an unloaded single action revolver with your off hand in the position you want, and and try changing the angle to see what works for you.  By the By , If I remember correctly, the max cant allowed  by SASS is 30 degrees from vertical.

Edited January 29, 2020 by RemingtonSteel

[wizard of tragacanth]

Remington Steel... thanks for giving this clarity. It totally does depend on where the holster is worn on the belt.

I mistakenly used an assumed and unspoken 3:00 position in my example. This was pure stupidity on my part. Of course, a straight drop will work at only one point on the belt. 

The principle that I was getting at, is that it is not a good dynamic to have to flex one's wrist to draw the gun. A straight line should be maintained through the gun, the wrist and forearm. The wrist should be locked.

Then, keeping the wrist locked, move the gun to the position where it will be worn and that will give you the proper cant. In other words... WHAT YOU SAID!

I can be such a Dummkopf!

nick

Edited January 29, 2020 by wizard of tragacanth

[kgg]

As a suggestion since we are all built differently ( short legs, short arms and vise versa ) as well with age some of us get a little thicker around the middle, why not stand in front of a full length mirror. Using a template or old holster see what position fits your gun best, feels most comfortable and go from there. You may fine a limited holster swivel maybe best.

kgg

[RemingtonSteel]

Wizard of Tragacanth,  my comments were not actually a rebuttal to your comments, as I was writing my reply the same time you were writing yours.  You just submitted yours a few minutes before I submitted mine.   As a matter of fact, I agree wholeheartedly with you that the best cant is one where your wrist resides at it's natural angle without any bend to it, when drawing your weapon, even it that means no cant. Just like a lot of things in life, there are no hard and fast rules set in stone, relating to cant angle for holsters. I am a big proponent of the adage "If it is not comfortable, one is not likely to continue doing it"  So that is why I suggest setting a cant angle that is the most comfortable to the shooter, and each shooter is different.

On 1/20/2020 at 12:00 AM, dikman said:

but as I draw and use a two-handed grip to fire it seems to me that a forward cant should make for smoother drawing.

I just thought of something else.  The cant can, and maybe should, be different for strong side vs weak side holsters depending on shooting style. As and example, I shoot Cowboy style, and not Gunfighter style. What that means is that I am always shooting with my strong hand.  So when I draw my revolver from my weak side, I place my thumb on the revolver's top strap, and my middle finger on the front of the trigger guard, so that the grip is free and unobstructed.  That way I can easily (and quickly) transfer the revolver from my weak hand to my strong hand for shooting. The wrong cant, or too severe of a cant, could make this type of draw uncomfortable or difficult. Just something else to be aware of when designing a cant into a SASS holster.

[chuck123wapati]

Cant is also effected by drawing style, there was a time in firearm history where the gun was drawn more rearward, tipped to point forward at the point it cleared the holster , the elbow then moved forward and planted firmly on the side and the gun fired from that point without aiming, you've seen it in old westerns. The side plant was taught to law enforcement as late as the 70s that I know of as my dad shot that way in fact he never used two hands to shoot a handgun was taught by law enforcement and was very accurate. Nowadays with the forward cant the barrel is drawn out of the holster in a forward type sweep and the barrel pointed forward during the rotation of the arm and wrist as it comes up to the ready position.  In the end however it is personal preference and what feels good to the shooter. If ya like it go for it.

[wizard of tragacanth]

2 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Wizard of Tragacanth,  my comments were not actually a rebuttal to your comments, as I was writing my reply the same time you were writing yours.  You just submitted yours a few minutes before I submitted mine.  

RemingtonSteel -- I know it was not a direct rebuttal.. it was a precient rebuttal... still valid and that's why I responded as I did. 

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Cant is also effected by drawing style, there was a time in firearm history where the gun was drawn more rearward, tipped to point forward at the point it cleared the holster , the elbow then moved forward and planted firmly on the side and the gun fired from that point without aiming, you've seen it in old westerns. The side plant was taught to law enforcement as late as the 70s that I know of as my dad shot that way in fact he never used two hands to shoot a handgun was taught by law enforcement and was very accurate. 

There is still a technique related to this today. It is called the "Speed Rock". Wanna see it in action?