Forward cant Western holster?

[dikman]

I need to make myself new holsters (for Single Action shooting) and it occurred to me that a slight forward cant (a la John Wayne's holster) might be interesting. Can anyone think of any reasons why this isn't a practical idea? Or would it be better to make them "normal" upright type? I'm hoping people with experience will chime in. I have a set with a rearward cant, patterned from Steve McQueen's in The Magnificent Seven, but as I draw and use a two-handed grip to fire it seems to me that a forward cant should make for smoother drawing.

[pmieras2000]

I don't see why it would be a problem. I build my holsters according to what the customer wants. 

[Josh Ashman]

I'm no SASS shooter, but from what I've seen many of their holsters are built with a forward cant. As I recall they have a rule saying just how much cant they allow but I have no idea how much that amount is. A member that went by "Red Cent" used to post a bunch on here with SASS rigs. You might search for his old posts or see if you can message him for info.

All the best, Josh

Edited January 29, 2020 by Josh Ashman

[wizard of tragacanth]

Straight drop versus canted... this is an interesting dynamic. I used to make all of my concealed carry holsters with the "traditional FBI 15° forward cant". Then I read something, somewhere, where a guy suggested that a canted holster does not make the draw smoother, nor faster and in fact, puts an unnatural bend in the wrist and slows getting the gun on target. With a straight drop, the wrist is locked and the gun is inline with the arm as it comes out and up, and it is ready for firing. Just try these motions without a gun or holster, mimic the action. I saw very quickly that he was right... well, that was my feeling anyway. Then I put my canted holster on and really became a believer. If you try this experiment, pay attention to where your elbow goes in each instance.  From a straight drop holster, the elbow goes straight back, very naturally. From a canted draw, the elbow goes out to the side and puts a strain on the shoulder... or at least in my case. Surely this is more pronounced on a holster worn with the trigger at belt level and less so on a holster worn lower, Western style. Still, it could be a factor. Try it out.

The forward cant does have some benefit in concealed carry because it effectively "shortens" a larger gun, allowing one to comfortably sit in a chair or car seat without the barrel pushing into it.  Also, when drawing from a seated position, the elbow is often blocked by the chair, so it cannot go straight back anyway, it must go out to the side.

nick

[RemingtonSteel]

Dikman, I am an active member of SASS, (I shoot with both "The California Rangers" and "The Outlaws"), and there is no good reason that I can think of not to have a cant.  Whether it is a forward cant or rearward cant is purely shooter preference.  The only factor that I can think of that would affect direction and amount of cant, is actual holster position in relation to the body.  If you wear your holsters at the 8 and the 4 o'clock positions (4 o'clock like the Duke),  then a forward cant might suit you.  However, if you were to wear those same holsters at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions (like many in SASS shooters here in the US are doing), a forward cant may be uncomfortable, and a negative cant, or no cant might be better suited to these positions.  When I made my last rig, I designed them with a 15 degree rearward cant to be worn at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions, as this was comfortable for me.  I have since moved my holsters to the 10 and 2 o'clock positions (I can see both holsters in my periphery at the same time with a slight head tilt down) , and the rearward cant makes for a more comfortable draw, at least for me.  So I would figure out, if you don't already know, where you want to carry your pistols, and then determine if you want a cant or not.  You can even hold an unloaded single action revolver with your off hand in the position you want, and and try changing the angle to see what works for you.  By the By , If I remember correctly, the max cant allowed  by SASS is 30 degrees from vertical.

Edited January 29, 2020 by RemingtonSteel

[wizard of tragacanth]

Remington Steel... thanks for giving this clarity. It totally does depend on where the holster is worn on the belt.

I mistakenly used an assumed and unspoken 3:00 position in my example. This was pure stupidity on my part. Of course, a straight drop will work at only one point on the belt. 

The principle that I was getting at, is that it is not a good dynamic to have to flex one's wrist to draw the gun. A straight line should be maintained through the gun, the wrist and forearm. The wrist should be locked.

Then, keeping the wrist locked, move the gun to the position where it will be worn and that will give you the proper cant. In other words... WHAT YOU SAID!

I can be such a Dummkopf!

nick

Edited January 29, 2020 by wizard of tragacanth

[kgg]

As a suggestion since we are all built differently ( short legs, short arms and vise versa ) as well with age some of us get a little thicker around the middle, why not stand in front of a full length mirror. Using a template or old holster see what position fits your gun best, feels most comfortable and go from there. You may fine a limited holster swivel maybe best.

kgg

[RemingtonSteel]

Wizard of Tragacanth,  my comments were not actually a rebuttal to your comments, as I was writing my reply the same time you were writing yours.  You just submitted yours a few minutes before I submitted mine.   As a matter of fact, I agree wholeheartedly with you that the best cant is one where your wrist resides at it's natural angle without any bend to it, when drawing your weapon, even it that means no cant. Just like a lot of things in life, there are no hard and fast rules set in stone, relating to cant angle for holsters. I am a big proponent of the adage "If it is not comfortable, one is not likely to continue doing it"  So that is why I suggest setting a cant angle that is the most comfortable to the shooter, and each shooter is different.

On 1/20/2020 at 12:00 AM, dikman said:

but as I draw and use a two-handed grip to fire it seems to me that a forward cant should make for smoother drawing.

I just thought of something else.  The cant can, and maybe should, be different for strong side vs weak side holsters depending on shooting style. As and example, I shoot Cowboy style, and not Gunfighter style. What that means is that I am always shooting with my strong hand.  So when I draw my revolver from my weak side, I place my thumb on the revolver's top strap, and my middle finger on the front of the trigger guard, so that the grip is free and unobstructed.  That way I can easily (and quickly) transfer the revolver from my weak hand to my strong hand for shooting. The wrong cant, or too severe of a cant, could make this type of draw uncomfortable or difficult. Just something else to be aware of when designing a cant into a SASS holster.

[chuck123wapati]

Cant is also effected by drawing style, there was a time in firearm history where the gun was drawn more rearward, tipped to point forward at the point it cleared the holster , the elbow then moved forward and planted firmly on the side and the gun fired from that point without aiming, you've seen it in old westerns. The side plant was taught to law enforcement as late as the 70s that I know of as my dad shot that way in fact he never used two hands to shoot a handgun was taught by law enforcement and was very accurate. Nowadays with the forward cant the barrel is drawn out of the holster in a forward type sweep and the barrel pointed forward during the rotation of the arm and wrist as it comes up to the ready position.  In the end however it is personal preference and what feels good to the shooter. If ya like it go for it.

[wizard of tragacanth]

2 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Wizard of Tragacanth,  my comments were not actually a rebuttal to your comments, as I was writing my reply the same time you were writing yours.  You just submitted yours a few minutes before I submitted mine.  

RemingtonSteel -- I know it was not a direct rebuttal.. it was a precient rebuttal... still valid and that's why I responded as I did. 

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Cant is also effected by drawing style, there was a time in firearm history where the gun was drawn more rearward, tipped to point forward at the point it cleared the holster , the elbow then moved forward and planted firmly on the side and the gun fired from that point without aiming, you've seen it in old westerns. The side plant was taught to law enforcement as late as the 70s that I know of as my dad shot that way in fact he never used two hands to shoot a handgun was taught by law enforcement and was very accurate. 

There is still a technique related to this today. It is called the "Speed Rock". Wanna see it in action? 

 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, wizard of tragacanth said:

RemingtonSteel -- I know it was not a direct rebuttal.. it was a precient rebuttal... still valid and that's why I responded as I did. 

There is still a technique related to this today. It is called the "Speed Rock". Wanna see it in action? 

 

Very cool yup my dad taught me that years ago. Its basically the same thing. thanks for sharing. 

[dikman]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I shoot with my strong hand so a rear-ward cant on the left holster would not be good if at a 9/3 position but a forward cant should be slightly beneficial. However, for any other position a forward cant is probably going to be a handicap. Based on what's been said I'm thinking 9/3 position with a 15-20% forward cant might be worth trying.  If that doesn't work out then it's 10/2 with a rearward cant! One of them should work.......

[RemingtonSteel]

4 minutes ago, dikman said:

I shoot with my strong hand so a rear-ward cant on the left holster would not be good if at a 9/3 position

To better understand what you mean, could you let us know which hand is your strong hand, Right or Left?

[dikman]

Right hand, sorry, should have mentioned that before. I forget that not everyone is right-handed. For the left hand I need to drag the gun out, forward and across so angled forward slightly should be a bit more natural to clear the holster (according to my reasoning).

[dikman]

I was discussing this idea at the last SASA shoot I went to and it was pointed out why it wasn't a good idea. It would point the barrel just slightly rearward, which would break the rules regarding where the barrel was pointing, and dragging it out could angle it back even more. Result would likely be a disqualification!

Just as well I haven't started on them, looks like they'll have a slight rearward cant then, no big deal.

[Dwight]

12 hours ago, dikman said:

I was discussing this idea at the last SASA shoot I went to and it was pointed out why it wasn't a good idea. It would point the barrel just slightly rearward, which would break the rules regarding where the barrel was pointing, and dragging it out could angle it back even more. Result would likely be a disqualification!

Just as well I haven't started on them, looks like they'll have a slight rearward cant then, no big deal.

Not sure who you talked to, . . . but they do not know the SASS rules, . . . or decided to make their own up as they went.

Copied straight from the SASS handbook:

SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING SOCIETY Shooter’s Handbook Copyright© Single Action Shooting Society, Inc. 2020 Version 24.1 3 HOLSTERS, CARTRIDGE BELTS, & BANDOLEERS Holsters -

All handguns must be carried in a safe holster capable of retaining the firearm throughout a normal range of motion. -

Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by at least the width of two fists at the belt. (Note: Pocket pistol and derringer holsters are not “main match” holsters) - Holsters may not depart from the vertical by more than 30º when worn. -

Although cross draw and shoulder holsters are legal, extreme care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross draw or shoulder holster or retuning the firearm to leather.

The user must “twist” their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170° safety rule during the process. -

When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170° (and vice versa on the return).

These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster. This allowance applies to all types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs.

_____________

May God bless,

Dwight

[dikman]

" When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; "

That is what he's referring to, with a forward cant holster the barrel will be pointing back when holstered, so when drawing it will break that 180 rule.

[chuck123wapati]

15 minutes ago, dikman said:

" When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; "

That is what he's referring to, with a forward cant holster the barrel will be pointing back when holstered, so when drawing it will break that 180 rule.

so then how are 30 degree cant, crossdraw and shoulder holsters legal if that is the case? I'm just asking because I don't do this? They seem contradictory. seems the barrel could be straight down as it "leaves leather" even with a forward cant but the cant wouldn't help much

[dikman]

Yeah, it can be confusing. 30 degrees is the maximum cant/angle for a holster, but if it's a cross-draw when drawing you have to twist your body to ensure that the barrel doesn't point back behind the shooting line.

" seems the barrel could be straight down as it "leaves leather" even with a forward cant but the cant wouldn't help much " That's the issue, any hint of a rearward facing barrel when drawing could be a problem. Just not worth the potential hassle, imo.

[MikeRock]

Dwight,

Is there an illustration in the SASS handbook to show holster cant, angles upon clearing leather and the 170 downrange rule? 

God bless

 

Found the PDF online.

Edited February 11, 2020 by MikeRock
Found the PDF online

[Dwight]

4 hours ago, MikeRock said:

Dwight,

Is there an illustration in the SASS handbook to show holster cant, angles upon clearing leather and the 170 downrange rule? 

God bless

 

Found the PDF online.

Not that I know of, . . . MikeRock, . . . but the whole thing is being blown out of proportion by someone trying to make up the rules as he wants them to be.

Drawing you weapon from a forward cant holster will NOT make the barrel automatically point to the rear.  Try it in front of a mirror for crying out loud.  As the weapon is drawn, . . . it straightens up or goes fwd, . . . depending on the skill of the shooter.  The fwd cant is a trick to allow the shooter to get a better grip on his handgun before he begins the upward movement.

Yes, . . . I'd make a 29 degree fwd cant for a customer if he wanted it, . . . and be happy that I had the opportunity to help him.  I'd balk at the 30 because I might make a mistake and have to do it over again for no cost.

Some of these people need to DO more things and then they would find out how things work.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Professor]

On 1/29/2020 at 3:34 PM, chuck123wapati said:

Cant is also effected by drawing style, there was a time in firearm history where the gun was drawn more rearward, tipped to point forward at the point it cleared the holster , the elbow then moved forward and planted firmly on the side and the gun fired from that point without aiming, you've seen it in old westerns. The side plant was taught to law enforcement as late as the 70s that I know of as my dad shot that way in fact he never used two hands to shoot a handgun was taught by law enforcement and was very accurate. Nowadays with the forward cant the barrel is drawn out of the holster in a forward type sweep and the barrel pointed forward during the rotation of the arm and wrist as it comes up to the ready position.  In the end however it is personal preference and what feels good to the shooter. If ya like it go for it.

I've noticed that in the TV series "Paladin" Richard Boone usually draws the revolver back from the holster then thrusts it forwards as if thrusting with a sword. At the same time swiveling his body to present a more narrow target. One thing I like about that series is that Paladin often ran up against gunfighters who were a hair faster on the draw but with his patented style he never missed hitting them dead center.

A couple of other quirks, he had his cartridges custom made with a lighter than standard bullet and a specialized gunpowder which appears to have been one of the "brown powder" or "grey powder" precursors to true smokeless powders. I suppose this allowed for a slightly higher velocity.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Professor

[dikman]

Dwight, no argument from me on your reasoning, because I agree with it (which is why I had the idea of a forward cant). Unfortunately, if the powers-that-be running Single Action here in Oz determine that it breaks the rules by pointing the barrel backwards I'm not about to create any dramas for myself over what is a minor issue.

Professor, as many here doubtless know Andy Anderson was an early holster maker for tv and movies. He studied the actual action of drawing and firing and developed the rearward canted holster as providing a more natural means of fast drawing a revolver. If you think about it, that works well if you draw and fire from the hip, if however you draw and raise the revolver to a straight arm forward thrusting position it's not as efficient as you are actually pulling the gun back and then have to reverse direction to raise it up. With a forward cant you're drawing it forward and up, which is more natural for a raised arm style.

Anyhow, it's been an interesting discussion.

[chuck123wapati]

7 hours ago, Professor said:

I've noticed that in the TV series "Paladin" Richard Boone usually draws the revolver back from the holster then thrusts it forwards as if thrusting with a sword. At the same time swiveling his body to present a more narrow target. One thing I like about that series is that Paladin often ran up against gunfighters who were a hair faster on the draw but with his patented style he never missed hitting them dead center.

A couple of other quirks, he had his cartridges custom made with a lighter than standard bullet and a specialized gunpowder which appears to have been one of the "brown powder" or "grey powder" precursors to true smokeless powders. I suppose this allowed for a slightly higher velocity.

Tv made some radical holster inventions in order to please its customers. The holsters were often lined with steel or rawhide also so the cylinder could rotate as the gun was being drawn, this allowed for the shooter to cock the weapon faster it also led to the modern fast draw competitions we know today. I'll try and post a video about it that I ran across .https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cowboy+action+fast+draw&qpvt=cowboy+action+fast+draw&view=detail&mid=CFF9431B379BBA2D6AA5CFF9431B379BBA2D6AA5&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcowboy%2Baction%2Bfast%2Bdraw%26qpvt%3Dcowboy%2Baction%2Bfast%2Bdraw%26FORM%3DVDRE