Hand press

[seabee]

Hi, all

I hope everyone is coping with the STAY AT HOME!

Today I modifier my HF arbor press for Buckleguy rivets, snaps.  I like his hardware, but I didn't buy his press.  I use my HF press for a lot of things.  My shop is small, and no place for single use equipment.  I would put pictures, but aways have bad luck using my flip-phone.  I tested it out and I am happy with it,  made a few things using there snap setter.

Howard

 

[mcguyver42]

I bought a used Hiker press locally with the idea of doing something similar, but had to give in and buy his press because of the oddball sizes that he used for his dies.  What size and thread pitch did you use?

[ButtonLady]

 

3 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

I bought a used Hiker press locally with the idea of doing something similar, but had to give in and buy his press because of the oddball sizes that he used for his dies.  What size and thread pitch did you use?

I'd be really interested to know this, too!  I have a few ideas, having jury-rigged my fair share of machines and dies... (with some "interesting" results).

Buckleguy's "BG Press" is a M8/19mm machine, meaning top threads are 8mm and bottom shank is 19mm diameter.  It's the most common metric size available.  Any M8/19mm die will fit it.

Hiker presses use 3/8" shank dies —also very common.

[mcguyver42]

Yeah, I will have to look into that again, now that I have some actual BG dies to try.  It would be very convenient to have 2 presses, to minimize changing dies.  Actually he was very clever, his die dimensions are 7.8 and 18.9mm, but leathercrafters are pretty clever too.

[ButtonLady]

1 hour ago, mcguyver42 said:

Actually he was very clever, his die dimensions are 7.8 and 18.9mm, but leathercrafters are pretty clever too.

Leatherworkers are pretty awesome, actually.

Die shank dimensions are always going to be slightly smaller than machine openings, but... you're right, he's not exactly advertising that fact.  Dies are very rarely brand-specific, and it's really irritating that some brands [not mentioning names] imply or make that claim outright.  /off my soapbox

[mcguyver42]

Everything about Buckleguy is top notch so I don't mean to speak badly of them, and the press and dies are excellent quality.  The press is a little stiff at $200, but the dies are a bargain at less than $40. for a set. 

[ButtonLady]

2 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

Everything about Buckleguy is top notch so I don't mean to speak badly of them, and the press and dies are excellent quality.

My apologies...  Buckleguy was upfront and provided dimensions, and I should have acknowledged that (instead of being catty).  They were not the subject of my soapbox rant and I should have made that clear.

Too many vendors and distributors shroud their machines in mystery and claim their branded equipment is proprietary —some is, of course, and hardware can "prefer" certain setting equipment (for example, metric vs. imperial can be an issue)— but knowing their dies' shank size and type can avoid a lot of frustration and unnecessary expense.  If a seller can't provide that information, move on to one that can.

 

[mcguyver42]

Well, I have heard both ways as far as being able to use different fasteners, snaps, and grommets with different brands of presses and dies, and different dies with different presses.  Actually, I think that that is how I came across this particular thread.  I was searching to see if anyone had any experience using Tandy hardware with Buckleguy dies.  I thought that I remembered reading something about that here on Leatherworker.net, but I couldn't find it.  That would be great news to find out that you are right, and that things are more generic along those lines than might be otherwise stated or implied.  I called Buckleguy yesterday and asked Nicole if she thought I might be able to use up some of my Tandy hardware with Buckleguy dies.  She didn't have any direct knowledge about that, and told me that of course she couldn't guarantee it, but that it would probably work.  By the way, I'm not a Buckleguy commercial, but that's another great thing to like about them.  When you call, you get an actual knowledgeable helpful employee or even the owner on the phone just like in the old days, instead of a customer service rep trained to politely put you off without actually being of any help.  Well, I guess I will find out.  I bought the press, the line 20 die set and the catalog last month.  This morning I ordered both line 24 die sets, the 3 component pieces to do tubular rivets, (both splash and capped), 3 double cap die sets, and several bags of various fasteners and snaps.  I'm all in for close to $750. now and I'm sure there will be another big order later to finish, but I've never been disappointed with anything that I have bought from them.  I'll try to come back to this later and let you know if I have any success using the Tandy hardware and adapting my Hiker 901 to use the BG dies.

[ButtonLady]

I have no experience with Buckle Guy at all and I'm glad they have been so responsive.  Good to hear!

 

12 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

I have heard both ways as far as being able to use different fasteners, snaps, and grommets with different brands of presses and dies, and different dies with different presses.

Manufacturers and distributors will often send samples for free (or for a small charge).  I've tried a LOT of snaps this way (also rivets and grommets, but mostly snaps).  Most of what I've tried is standard enough to be compatible with different brand dies.  Granted, I haven't tried EVERYTHING... but hardware is *generally* built to a standard compatible with *most* setting equipment, regardless of brand.

I do know that Baby DOT 20L snaps don't work well in Osborne 20L snap dies (at least not in Osborne's old style dies; haven't experimented with their new style).

 

12 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

I'll try to come back to this later and let you know if I have any success using the Tandy hardware and adapting my Hiker 901 to use the BG dies.

Thanks so much for contributing to this body of knowledge!

[mcguyver42]

Good to know about the free samples to try, I will keep that in mind.  Nice to say about the contributing, I hope to pay it forward at some point.  I did make a little headway with the hiker press.  The stated sizes of the BG dies again are 7.8mm and 18.9mm.  I measured them and they are spot on. .307" = 7.7978 mm.,  .744" =18.8976.  After doing a little thinking and figuring, I realized that the difference between the 7.8mm and 8 mm is .2mm (just under .008"). The difference between 18.9mm and 19mm is .1mm obviously or just shy of .004".  Those would be the necessary clearances for the respective bores, but those would generally just be called 8 and 19mm dies.  .008 seems a bit much, but maybe that is the needed clearance for a bolt?  I never really thought too much about it.  If you were to cut threads on a bolt, the die is marked 8mm and we would call it a 8mm bolt, but it is actually cutting 7.8mm threads.  I measured a standard 8mm bolt and lo and behold, there is our .308" or 7.8mm again.  I guess otherwise it would be too confusing.  We would have to call a 3/8" bolt a two hundred and ninety five thousandth's bolt.  Sorry to go on about it, I just found it interesting, and it's been right there all along.

[mcguyver42]

But on with the headway.  I measured the thread pitch of one of the upper dies with the brass metric thread pitch guage and found that it is 1.5 which may be common on machine threads, I don't know, but I've never heard of a 8 x 1.5 bolt.  I measured it again with the silver steel SAE guage and found that 18 course is a  perfect fit.  I measured a 5/16 coarse bolt and found the diameter to be .307, remember that the 8mm measured .308.   I tried a common 5/16" coarse nut  and lo and behold, it screws on just like it was made for it.  5/16' coarse is nearly if not identical to 8 x 1.5.

[toxo]

I'll add a sideways rant here. I'm building a hot foil press and the thermocouple that screws into the aluminium block is M6. I have M6 taps but being a belt and braces guy I bought three more on ebay for around £8 the three. The first thing that pissed me off was the thread pitch is not standard. Instead of being M6x1 which is standard it was M6x1.25 (which is standard for M8). The second thing that pissed me off was no one I knew had a M6x1.25 tap and the only one I could find anywhere was £17.50 . I'll only use the thing once. 

I got onto inkbird and suggested they change it because that amount of money could well tip the balance when considering the cost of the parts to build versus buying ready made.

[fredk]

Drill it out to M7 and fit M6 helicoils

[mcguyver42]

I was kind of thinking along the same line.  I poked around a little bit and didn't really see much in the way of m6 x 1.25 helicoils though.  Might be better off to just abandon the thermocouple and look for one without that oddball thread size.

[mcguyver42]

The other thing you could do is cut a groove into 2 sides of  the threads of the thermocouple  fitting, and let it cut it's own threads on the way in.  I don't know how well it would ever come apart again, but it would go in and get tight

[toxo]

It's amazing how we ideas people will always find a way. I went the easiest way. Pay £17.50, use it once and put it back on Ebay for £15 used. Just hope I don't break the bloody thing.

[mcguyver42]

Well that sounds like the best repair.  Let us know how your heat imprinter project works out.

[fredk]

4 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

I was kind of thinking along the same line.  I poked around a little bit and didn't really see much in the way of m6 x 1.25 helicoils though.  

Just as a note for others looking in. Helicoils, some of, can adapt to the thread.

eg. I/we fitted some M6 Helicoils into some drilled holes and screwed 1/4 inch bolts into them on my 1930 Austin . It wasn't an option to change fully to M6 bolts

[toxo]

3 minutes ago, mcguyver42 said:

Well that sounds like the best repair.  Let us know how your heat imprinter project works out.

Will do Mac. I have all the bits now. Biggest job now is cutting down the aluminium lump. It's 4 inches in dia and 4 inches tall. Now, not being a thermo guy I'm pondering which way to cut it. I have three 120w heaters (around 9mm) to sink into it along with the thermocouple. I don't know how thick to cut it before it's just wasting heat and taking longer to heat up. I think about an inch will do but that's a guess. I could leave it in the round and just lop off an inch or so. I could cut it "lengthways"  and have it 4 inches square. No doubt clarity will creep up on me.

I've hijacked this thread enough. I'll start a new thread when I update.

[mcguyver42]

Creeping Clarity, well said.  Tapping a helicoil to a different thread, I never thought about that.  Can they came back out if they need to and then go back in again?

[toxo]

1 hour ago, mcguyver42 said:

Creeping Clarity, well said.  Tapping a helicoil to a different thread, I never thought about that.  Can they came back out if they need to and then go back in again?

Nor me. Someone more knowledgeable will answer that. I haven't messed with helicoils for fifty years.

[fredk]

Note. Off topic. Just to answer queries

We did the first 1/4" bolt into M6 helicoils  fitting by accident. We had two parts bolted together, one had threaded through holes and the other had threaded blind holes. The design of the parts is that the bolt is screwed part way through first part, the part offered up to the second part and the bolts run up tight. There are short locating sleeves to help with alignment so the first few mm of the hole in second part has no thread

1. we had through holes with near stripped 1/4 inch threads

2. I drilled out and ran M6 helicoils into the through holes. Intention was to put M6 helicoils into the blind holes as well. But I held off as changing to M6 was going to compromise the part.

3. No.1 son accidently took the 1/4 inch bolts and bolted the two parts together thinking I'd finished and all was ready for re-assembly.

4. when we realised what we'd done we took some bolts out and checked and they needed unscrewing their whole length

5. We used this same process on purpose on a few other 1/4 inch bolt threads.

I think the threads on the 1/4 inch were British Whitworth, just slightly off from M6. The helicoil, by its nature of being a coiled spring can expand slightly to accommodate the difference.

[mcguyver42]

Ok, Whitworth, I've heard of that but not familiar.  Was that a valve body?

[fredk]

2 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

Was that a valve body?

no, it was a top gears cover to lower cover / engine nose / engine and also a dynamo mounting to the top gears cover

[mcguyver42]

Well, glad that worked out for you, and I'll keep the helicoil tip in mind.  Dynamo, I love it!