Yet another "What size thread" request

[Chris623]

I purchased a box of waxed thread, some needles and a few other items from flea-bay recently. I'm a newbie, so had no idea the majority of the contents were useless for my purposes. Later I was told to purchase James Johns #1/0 Harness needles for my sheath making. Tried the waxed thread that came in the box of (mostly) junk only to find I'd probably have more luck pushing an Elephant through the eye in my needles! So what size thread will go through the eye of my #1/0 needles? I'm using Tandy Leathers Veg Tanned Shoulders for material at present.

[McCarthy]

What stitching irons are you using?

[Chris623]

I'm using Tandy's 3mm 88056 chisels.  But forgive a newbie.................what does that have to do with finding a thread size to go through the eye of the needle???

Edited September 28, 2020 by Chris623

[McCarthy]

21 minutes ago, Chris623 said:

I'm using Tandy's 3mm 88056 chisels.  But forgive a newbie.................what does that have to do with finding a thread size to go through the eye of the needle???

0.8 mm Ritza tiger thread and John James 002 needles would be better suited for those irons. 1/0 needles are too big, they would go with 4mm irons and Ritza 1.0 or 1.2.

[Chris623]

This is a good example of a newbie asking questions of folks who have experience with all this stuff.  Everyone I ask has a different answer.

Thanks for responding.  I'm doing my best to learn about all of this, but it's not been easy.

[toxo]

3 hours ago, Chris623 said:

I purchased a box of waxed thread, some needles and a few other items from flea-bay recently. I'm a newbie, so had no idea the majority of the contents were useless for my purposes. Later I was told to purchase James Johns #1/0 Harness needles for my sheath making. Tried the waxed thread that came in the box of (mostly) junk only to find I'd probably have more luck pushing an Elephant through the eye in my needles! So what size thread will go through the eye of my #1/0 needles? I'm using Tandy Leathers Veg Tanned Shoulders for material at present.

Everything is a compromise. The smaller the thread the neater it looks but the harder it is to sew if the hole is small and the needle is large. If you have a decent amount of thread buy different needles. John James #2 will be useful. JJ#3 will take a 1mm thread. when saddle stitching it's good to put both needles in the hole at the same time, this negates piercing the thread which will give you a headache. If you have to, you can do one needle at a time but must be extra careful to not pierce threads. Make sure you buy harness needles which are blunt.

[Chris623]

Right now the only thread I have is that big bulky waxed thread that came in the flea-bay "kit"...............which is why I asked the question in the first place.  My primary goal in leather working is to make sheaths for my knives.  I think I need 1 size needle and the thread that fits it.  I've got 3mm slanted diamond pricking irons.  I've spent (what to me is a lot) lot of money buying Tandy's Pro series and have a 1, 2, 4 and 9 prong irons.  I don't really care to have to buy more.  I haven't even looked at my James Johns harness needles that closely, so don't know if they are blunt or not.  Brother, what a mess!

[McCarthy]

16 minutes ago, Chris623 said:

Right now the only thread I have is that big bulky waxed thread that came in the flea-bay "kit"...............which is why I asked the question in the first place.  My primary goal in leather working is to make sheaths for my knives.  I think I need 1 size needle and the thread that fits it.  I've got 3mm slanted diamond pricking irons.  I've spent (what to me is a lot) lot of money buying Tandy's Pro series and have a 1, 2, 4 and 9 prong irons.  I don't really care to have to buy more.  I haven't even looked at my James Johns harness needles that closely, so don't know if they are blunt or not.  Brother, what a mess!

If you can show us an example of the sort of stitching you want to do, we can give advice on how to achieve it.

[Chris623]

I don't have any examples..............because I've not started stitching yet. 

Edit:

I have to correct myself.  Didn't stop to think I'm carrying my EDC in a holster with the stitch I want to duplicate.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Chris623

[McCarthy]

51 minutes ago, Chris623 said:

I don't have any examples..............because I've not started stitching yet. 

Edit:

I have to correct myself.  Didn't stop to think I'm carrying my EDC in a holster with the stitch I want to duplicate.

How many stitches per inch? I can't tell without seeing the whole holster but I would guess it's 6 SPI.  These chisels in 4mm are what I would recommend for that kind of work. Maybe even 5mm, if you are going to be doing thick welts.

[zuludog]

Ah, sewing -- welcome to the fun! Let's take the three items in order - stitching chisels; needles; thread, and also what you would like to make

To make sheaths you would typically use 2,5mm to 3mm thick leather, so you should use wider rather than closer stitch spacing. Also, it is easier to sew with wider stitch spacing, and as a beginner you would appreciate that. And here's another point, if you're using thicker thread you should also choose wider stitch spacing

Which brings us onto the choice of stitching chisels

Unfortunately, I think the 3mm spacing Tandy chisels you already have are a bit too close, and you would do better with wider spacing. So although you might not like spending more I would have a look at 5mm Kyoshin Elle chisels from Rocky Mountain Leather Supply. No need to buy a full set; a 2 or 3 - prong is about $15 and will get you started. See how you go, you can always add more, or go down a size

Thread........ 0,6mm diameter thread will do for most leatherwork, though some people like 0,8mm for heavier work; but for now, stay with 0,6mm

Synthetic thread is usually braided polyester, and the dia is given directly in mm. RMLS sell short lengths of Ritza 25 aka Tiger thread. It is very popular and well worth trying

As an old traditional industry, describing the dia of linen thread is a bit confusing, but all you need to know is that 0,6mm is size 18/3 or 432 in the French system

Needles.........JJ size 1/0 are too big. Buy some JJ size 002 needles, they are the right size for most leatherwork and will accept 0,6mm, 18/3, and 432  thread

JJ needles have a smallish eye, even on the larger sizes. Tandy needles SKU 1195 - 00 have larger eyes (in fact they are often called Tandy Big-Eye Needles) and you can use thicker thread on them. If the thread is too thick for those needles then you don't really want to use it for sewing leather anyway

Neither the JJ 002 nor the Tandy needles are very expensive, and you will have a choice of needles for most threads for the forseeable future. You will probably be able to use the thread you have already bought. You say there were some needles in the original box you bought. As you acquire different thread you might be able to use those, it's just a question of playing around and seeing what suits you

Stitching chisels work better if you polish the prongs. Get a thin sliver of wood, like a lollipop sick, or a thin, but stiff, strip of plastic or aluminium, and glue some wet & dry abrasive paper to it, to make a small file. Start with 400 grit then down to 600 or even 800. Polish & smooth the sides & points of the prongs so they go in & out of the leather more easily. It also helps  to rub the prongs with beeswax

You can see that I do knife making, including the sheaths. I use 2,5 to 3,0mm natural vegetable tanned leather, usually shoulders, which I dye myself. But I have sometimes left it undyed, just greased, and it mellows to a sort of mustard yellow or very pale tan colour

I use stitching chisels with  5mm spacing; JJ 002 needles; 0,6mm synthetic or 18/3 or 432 linen thread. 

Here's a thought -- no-one likes spending money, but you might find it easier to just buy a decent set of kit in the first place, then play around with the items you already have when you've gained some experience. From Rocky Mountain Leather supply you could get --

One stitching chisel, about $15; JJ 002 needles, about $7; 0,6mm Ritza 25 about $7 = about $30, and it is a good combination

A knife sheath will have a font, a back, and a welt, so that's 3 + 3 + 3 = 9mm. A stiching chisel might not penetrate all the way through that thickness, so one technique is to start the holes with a chisel then complete them with an awl. In which case you may as well get an awl from RMLS when you place an order. Kyoshin Elle and Vergez-Blanchard are reasonably priced, and an awl is useful to have, even if you do most of the work with chisels

Search YouTube for making a knife sheath, there are loads of videos, often with slight variations; you'll soon work out what suits you

Edited September 29, 2020 by zuludog

[Chris623]

8 hours ago, McCarthy said:

How many stitches per inch? I can't tell without seeing the whole holster but I would guess it's 6 SPI.  These chisels in 4mm are what I would recommend for that kind of work. Maybe even 5mm, if you are going to be doing thick welts.

5 stitches/in on the holster in the picture, McCarthy.  Thanks for the link and suggestion

Thanks for all the info, zuludog.  It helps a lot when someone takes the time to explain to me "why" they made the choices in tools and materials.  You say the 3mm chisels are too close for sheaths? What would they be better used for?  So based on what both you and McCarthy are saying, I probably need to be looking at 5mm.  Hmmmmm.!

When I first got started in my quest to learn to make sheaths, a good friend who makes both knives and sheaths sent me the 9-prong 3mm Craftool Pro chisel from Tandy's as an incentive to get started.  When I went to get the 1, 2 and 4 prong chisels, I had to spend almost $75 for them!  That hurt, but I like to have good matched sets when I'm putting together tools.  I figured there might be some differences in spacing if I bought other brands.  (it happens in all tools)

Loads to learn............and lots of mistakes to make. 

[zuludog]

OK, here are a few more comments

3mm chisels are best used for thinner leather, say 2mm thick, for things like belt pouches, including pouches/sheaths for folding knives  & multi tools; larger belt pouches aka possibles bags; bullet/cartridge holders; covers for mobile phones and similar electronic devices; notebook covers such as Fieldnotes, Moleskine; bags & satchels; and making a wallet/holder for your stitching chisels As you do wood carving you could make a tool roll for your tools - Search YT; or simple slip on covers, I have done that for my leatherworking knives

Can also use 3mm on thinner 1,0 to 1,5mm leather for wallets 

Unless you are making a bushcraft sheath which has straight sides, most knife sheaths are curved, so you can't use a chisel with lots of prongs, a 2 prong 5mm chisel is plenty for getting started, you don't need a full set. You can always add to it.  And even a bushcraft sheath has curved parts 

Most stitching chisels are measured between the points, but Tandy Craftool, with the all - black finish, are measured between the sides of the prongs, so the distance between the points is a bit bigger. So 4mmTandy Craftool is about 5,5mm between the points. The easiest way round this problem is just to stay with Craftool Pro (Silver finish) or the Kyoshin Elle from RMLS

To make it clear, when you polish the prongs you are smoothing the sides, and rounding off the angle where the slope of the bevel for the point meets the straight sides of the prong 

YouTube is your friend! Search for techniques and any items you might fancy making. There are usually loads of videos, follow the links & prompts and watch as many as you have the stamina for! You will see how other people do things, and that there are variations on a theme; after a while you will develop your own method

Search YT for videos on the saddle stitch, you will use this for most leatherwork, and you might also stray onto the choice of thread. There are lots of videos, and some will probably show you the trick that is used when threading needles -- taper the end of the thread by cutting it on a slant or feathering the last 5mm or so with the tip of a knife; when you wax the thread it closes up to a point

These channels are good - Nigel Armitage.......Ian Atkinson..........JH Leather...............Geordie Leather............Weaver Leathercraft...........and many others of course

Edited September 29, 2020 by zuludog

[jcuk]

Any idea what size the thread is, i mainly use JJ 004 harness needles for light weight bridles i use 3/18 for heavier bridles 4/18 linen thread using 004 the other size harness needle i have is JJ OO3 which i use for 5/18 i always try to get away with the smallest size needle for the thread i can get away makes for easier stitching.

Useful info here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS8Vb6bkIjI

Hope this helps

JCUK

[Chris623]

Thanks, zuludog.  Okay, the 3mm chisels will be put out to pasture until I decide to make something with thinner leather.  Not wasted money spent, just money I didn't need to spend at this time.  Yup, I understand the reason for the smaller vs larger number of prongs on the chisels.  I watch a ton of Youtube videos and those you mentioned are always on my list.

Thanks for the link JCUK, that was one I'd not watched from Weaver.

[McCarthy]

Here are 4mm and 5mm chisels with 1.0mm tiger thread on the outer lines and 0.8mm on the inner lines. This was on W&C 8/10 bridle leather, and the teeth will only go through one thickness comfortably.

So on two stitched layers, you will either be completing the hole with an awl, or punching each layer individually. Some of the more expensive makers offer reverse sets, so you can punch both sides. I started with these chisels and quickly moved on to pricking irons, so you never know where you will end up. 

[Chris623]

Thank you for the picture for comparison.  Very helpful.

[jcuk]

Here another one with good info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYT9Rc2YRAk

JCUK

[Chris623]

Thank ya kindly, Sir.

[johnv474]

Tandy's chisels have weird sizing.  I don't know if the Pro chisels use the same labels as the main ones.  In the main ones, 3mm is not the distance between the TIPS, but the distance between the PRONGS.  So, their 2mm chisel is 6 spi, 3mm is 5 spi.

 

If the Pro chisels are the same, and have about 5 teeth in an inch, then I would suggest 0.8 Tiger thread or 0.030 Maine Thread or 4-5 cord linen and any needle with a number higher than 0.

 

If the Pro Chisels are actually 3mm, so about 8 spi, then I would suggest 0.6 Tiger thread and any needle with a number higher than 1.

[Chris623]

Looks like the 3mm Pro series produces a "hair" more than 7 stitches per inch, measured point to point.  I bought 0.8mm Tiger thread and have a #1/0 James Johns needles.   Guess I'm just going to have to cut a piece of scrap leather, put it in my stitching pony and sew some stitches and see if I like it or not.