Stitch Length HELP needed Consew 287R

[CustomDoug]

Hello - I'm using a somewhat older Consew 287R (Japanese made copy of Singer cylinder arm 153Wxxx with reverse).. I'm attempting to top-stitch a French seam into upholstery vinyl using 138 thread, and the max stitch length is coming out too small. There is a stitch length & reverse lever on the front - I have it set all the way up... at the "5", which I believe represents 5mm per stitch, but these are more like 3mm and/or less. I have raised the feed dog in an attempt to correct the problem.

One thing I'm noticing is that there is more resistance of the thread when pulling it at the needle end, then when pulling it from the bobbin (not sure if that has anything to do with the stitch length problem) - should the resistances be the same? 

Thanks for any help.

[Pintodeluxe]

Upper tension should normally feel stronger than bobbin tension.  That part is normal.  

  

[CustomDoug]

30 minutes ago, Pintodeluxe said:

Upper tension should normally feel stronger than bobbin tension.  That part is normal.  

  

Ok, that is good to know.. 

[CustomDoug]

..there is a large hole (maybe 3/4") just under the 'length-adjust-lever' on the front of the machine .. with a large screw inside of it. And also the same hole on the back-side directly in line with the front hole - which gives access to an Allen bolt. Are these there for stitch length issues? 

I think my alternating presser foot is only moving about 3mm on max. This machine should do 6mm IIRC.

 

[Uwe]

Can you please post a few photos of your machine?  It appears to be a Seiko design, not a Singer 153.

One thing to check is how much the needle actually moves at the throat plate level. Rotate the hand wheel so the needle is at throat plate level at the max front position. Hold a ruler next to the needle and flip the reverse lever, observe how much the needle actually moves.

Sometimes the max stitch length is limited due to incorrect feed timing.  A short close-up video of the feed dog and needle movement is the best way to judge that. 

Some machine designs allow a mechanic to purposely limit the max stitch length for projects with small-opening throat plates, etc.. This avoids accidentally damaging the machine if the operator could select a larger stitch length than the installed gauge set allowed. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Uwe

[CustomDoug]

All the way forward:

All the way back:

Well, close to 6mm, real close to it when tested as you suggest. But it's not translating to the stitch.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[CustomDoug]

@Uwe

Here's a shot of the stitches I'm getting on maximum, I'd say they are 3.5mm (pic actually makes them look better) [I've obviously removed the rear foot for the pics - but if it makes any difference the alternating foot is serated and the other is smooth] & again, size 138 poly thread... surely this machine will do bigger stitches than this?: 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[Uwe]

Try making some stitches in cardboard or thick paper without thread and measure those hole distances. That’s kind of the best case scenario for max stitch length - without anything slipping or stretching. (I made a stitch length measuring template that you can download and print out if you like: http://docs.uwe.net/slg.pdf )

Observe the feed timing one more time. The descending needle and inner foot should arrive at the top of the throat plate at the exact same time as the rising feed dog from below (this is a kind of reference position.) There should be no more forward movement at this point - needle, feed dog and feet should all start moving towards the back immediately after that reference position. If this is not the case, your feed timing may need to be adjusted.

Try a few slow, hand-turned stitches with material and threaded needle. Closely observe how the material and the needle move. If the needle enters the material before it reaches the very front of its movement, that will result in shorter stitch length.

If the material moves forward under the foot while the knot is being pulled tight (thread take-up lever at highest position.) that’s another problem that reduces stitch length. Too-high thread tension may pull the material forward as it’s pulling the knot into the material. In general, the thread tension should not be higher than really necessary to make a good stitch. Increasing foot pressure may also help alleviate that problem. But here also, the foot pressure should not be higher than really needed to firmly hold the material in place.

Different materials range from very sticky to very slippery, causing differences in how well the material can be moved or held in place. Thickness of material and force needed to pull the knot into the material also play a role. Try one needle size up to make it easier for the thread knot to get pulled into the material. Vinyls tend to be elastic and close up the needle hole around the thread again, veg tan leather on the other hand does not tend to close up the needle holes again. Vinyl and some leathers is also somewhat stretchy. If you stretch the material as you sew the stitch line will shorten again afterward. 

When sewing, don’t pull or push on the material, just guide it with a light touch. Let the machine do the feeding. Otherwise you may introduce other problems if you pull the needle one way or another while it’s trying to do its job.

[CustomDoug]

Cardboard got me 4mm holes... switched back to the vinyl and now a contrasting yellow 138 thread and it too showed a solid 4mm stitch length at maximum. I can't help but think it's an internal slip of a rod/gear. 

[Uwe]

Is your stitch length the same in reverse? Is there any play when you try to move the needle bar back and forth by hand?

It’s possible the feed mechanism is out of balance, thus increasing stitch length in one direction and reducing it in the other direction.

I still don’t know exactly what your machine looks like. I can’t find a parts diagram for a “ Consew 287R”  online, or much else for that matter. I’m guessing we’re talking about a rebadged Seiko CW-8B-2 like this:

 

 

[CowboyBob]

From looking @ your pic it appears the feed dog isn't far enough above the needle plate.

[shoepatcher]

 Looks like a Consew 227 R-1.  Feed dog seems to be hitting on the back of the throat plate slot.  the feed dog space from the front and back of the slot should be the same.  If not, that has to be centered.  If feed dog is too long in front or back, I sometimes grind the feed dog down in front or back a little.  Either way, at the max. stitch, should NOT be hitting the feed dog plate.  You get the feed dog centered in the throat plate front to back.  Then you center the needle into the feed dog hole.  Then, I check to make sure the feed dog is only 1/2" the height of the teeth above the throat plate.  NO more!   If needle is now centered in feed dog hole, I then equalize the walk height of each foot.  This procedure correct BOB?  Feed dog look long to you front to back Bob?

glenn

Edited October 1, 2020 by shoepatcher

[CustomDoug]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:08 PM, Uwe said:

Is your stitch length the same in reverse? Is there any play when you try to move the needle bar back and forth by hand?

It’s possible the feed mechanism is out of balance, thus increasing stitch length in one direction and reducing it in the other direction.

I still don’t know exactly what your machine looks like. I can’t find a parts diagram for a “ Consew 287R”  online, or much else for that matter. I’m guessing we’re talking about a rebadged Seiko CW-8B-2 like this:

 

 

YES - There is definitely a problem with my Reverse ... the stitch length is even shorter than forward, and I'm loosing tension from the top thread (loops on the back side of sewn vinyl). Here's pics of this particular issue (Note: forward stitching = top row, reverse on bottom): 

BACK SIDE:

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[CustomDoug]

 

On 10/1/2020 at 9:23 AM, shoepatcher said:

 Looks like a Consew 227 R-1.  Feed dog seems to be hitting on the back of the throat plate slot.  the feed dog space from the front and back of the slot should be the same.  If not, that has to be centered.  If feed dog is too long in front or back, I sometimes grind the feed dog down in front or back a little.  Either way, at the max. stitch, should NOT be hitting the feed dog plate.  You get the feed dog centered in the throat plate front to back.  Then you center the needle into the feed dog hole.  Then, I check to make sure the feed dog is only 1/2" the height of the teeth above the throat plate.  NO more!   If needle is now centered in feed dog hole, I then equalize the walk height of each foot.  This procedure correct BOB?  Feed dog look long to you front to back Bob?

glenn

Ok shoepatcher touched on a couple items: first, my feed dog come real close to (possibly touches) the front of the plate during a rotation, and the back is a couple millimeters from the back when the FD comes to that side. So I need to adjust that - BUT HOW's IT DONE?

Secondly, my feed dog did seem low (as Cowboy Bob pointed out in an earlier post) so I raised it.. maybe too much but my 'adjustment procedures' for a Singer 153Wxxx showed it should be 1.6mm above the plate. Would it being too high cause the looping stitches on the back side of the material (as seen in the above picture)? Here's my feed dog as it sits now:

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[Uwe]

Before we go any further we really need to understand exactly which  machine design we’re working with.

The feed mechanism on a Singer 153 is totally different from the Seiko. No meaningful adjustment advice can be given unless we know what machine design you have. Please post some pictures of the whole machine front and back, and a few detail shots of the internals behind the covers.

[CustomDoug]

Hi guys... THANKS SO MUCH for y'alls help!! 

Uwe, you were real close with the Seiko.. the following is a picture of my machine, also a pdf of the newest version of it from consew. 

http://www.consew.com/Files/112347/PDF/287RB.pdf

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[CustomDoug]

Edited October 5, 2020 by Northmount
uploaded photos here

[Uwe]

That’s a step in the right direction. Thanks for the pictures. 

I’m willing to bet money that this is a rebadged Seiko LCW-8BL design.

Let’s use this parts list a common reference: http://www.seiko-sewing.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/PARTS_LCW-8BL_8BLV_8BL-1_8BLV-1_1.pdf

Edited October 2, 2020 by Uwe

[CustomDoug]

Sounds good ... I also have the following parts list from the newer Consew version: http://www.consew.com/Files/112347/PartsBooks/287RB-2.pdf

Of course if they're the close enough and you're more familiar with the Seiko, then by all means.. let's use yours.

So, to recap - top stitches too short in forward (at max adjustment length), and Reverse acting funny (short on top & loops on bottom).

Couple other issues I'm noticing [may or may not be related to the main problem]:

-after sewing a line of stitches, bringing needle just past the top and lifting the foot - the thread does not put out easily for me to snip them off (I have to rock or sometimes manually reverse the hand wheel to get the work to pull out far enough).

-Also, I keep getting the feeling my top thread tension is just a bit too tight despite having the thumb screw/spring loosened quite well. 

[Uwe]

I’m guessing the Consew 287R is the same as the Consew 227R , but with the added automatic lubrication bits.

So, the Consew 227R appears to be a Seiko CW-8B design, and the Consew 287R is a Seiko LCW-8B design.

The feed mechanism and basic adjustments should be the identical on these machines.

I have a Honbo HB-8B machine, which is yet another clone of the Seiko CW-8B design. It came with a manual that has an adjustment section for hook timing etc. - but the adjustments section is entirely in Chinese. I scanned my printed manual into a PDF and I’ll try to translate key sections into English using Google translate. I’ll report back . . .

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Uwe

[CustomDoug]

Man, I owe you one for going out of your way to help!!! 

Here's a video I found of a CW-8 machine (non lubricating or reversing), that I think the user is making adjustments to the stitch length manually but it's in a language I don't understand. See the video starting at 2:35 or so, thru to about the 3:00 minute mark. I certainly could be wrong but.. it's how I'd envision the adjustment procedure to go on my machine. Thoughts?

 

 

[shoepatcher]

CustomDoug,

Feed dog way to high in the one picture.  I said 1/2 of a tooth above the throat plate.  That is what I used on my Consew 227R many years ago.  if feed dog to high, you will have problems.  Make sure outside foot tension is not to great as well.  High feed dog height will affect the outside foot tension.
glenn

Edited October 2, 2020 by shoepatcher

[Uwe]

The machine in that last video has a TOTALLY different feed mechanism. That machine is indeed close to a Singer 153, yours is NOT.

Please stop looking at Singer 153 documentation to figure out your machine’s feed mechanism, it will just confuse you.

I’m making a video right now on how to center the feed dog movement in the throat plate opening. Give me a chance to finish that.

[Uwe]

So here’s the video of how I adjusted my machine to center feed dog movement inside the throat plate opening:

 

[CustomDoug]

4 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

CustomDoug,

Feed dog way to high in the one picture.  I said 1/2 of a tooth above the throat plate.  That is what I used on my Consew 227R many years ago.  if feed dog to high, you will have problems.  Make sure outside foot tension is not to great as well.  High feed dog height will affect the outside foot tension.
glenn

Hi Glenn, I have moved the feed dog to 1/2 tooth above the plate at full height. Thanks for that info.