Fire Fighting Turnout Gear Repair

[ArtV]

Hi all, been a long time lurker but I have not posted up much. I have done some research into this and have not come up with much........ 

 

I am a leather worker who is looking at purchasing my first sewing machine........... here is where the question changes.   I believe I have narrowed down what I need for my leather goods, the Cowboy CB3200.  My question is.......... can I do turnout gear repair on this same machine? I would need to run nomex and kevlar thread. Any and all imput is appreciated. 

 

Thanks!!

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, ArtV said:

Hi all, been a long time lurker but I have not posted up much. I have done some research into this and have not come up with much........ 

 

I am a leather worker who is looking at purchasing my first sewing machine........... here is where the question changes.   I believe I have narrowed down what I need for my leather goods, the Cowboy CB3200.  My question is.......... can I do turnout gear repair on this same machine? I would need to run nomex and kevlar thread. Any and all imput is appreciated. 

 

Thanks!!

Be sure you can comply with this safety code.  

 NFPA 1851-2014, Section 8 requires that all repairs be performed by the original manufacturer, a verified ISP who has received training or a trained member of the organization. A limited number of basic repairs as defined in NFPA 1851 can be performed by the manufacturer, the organization, manufacturer trained organizations, verified organizations or verified ISPs. Basic repairs are defined as:  Patching of minor tears, char marks and ember burns to an outer shell  Repairing of skipped, broken, and missing stitches to an outer shell  Replacement of missing hardware (excluding closure) to an outer shell  Reclosing the liner of a garment after inspection Advanced repairs as defined in NFPA 1851 can be performed by Quaker Safety, a verified ISP or a verified organization.

[Wizcrafts]

Assuming you have or will get written permission to sew firefighter turnout gear, the fully capable CB3200 may have to be run with undersize needles and thread. The nominal needle size range is from 23 through 26, covering bonded nylon thread sizes 138 through 346 (Tex 135 through Tex 350). Nomex is rated in Tex sizes, like T60, T70, T90, T135, etc. All of those sizes require smaller needle diameters than those sold for leathercraft sewing. I have purchased round point System 7x3 needles from Bob Kovar in very small diameters, in needle sizes #18, #19, #20 and #22. You will probably need a couple packs of each because the long thin needles are easily deflected and broken. Make sure you buy round point 7x3 and not 794 leather points. The Schmetz "S" point needles that usually ship with Cowboy machines will slice the fire retardant material inline with the stitch line, weakening it. You want perfectly round holes, at the same spacing as the originals.

It will be important to match the thread and needle sizes for the tightest fit. So, you won't want to poke a large hole with a #23 needle while sewing with T90 Nomex. That calls for either a #19 or #20 needle. If you end up using T135 thread, a #22 needle may provide the best tightest fit. In leather you would have to use a #23 needle because of the extra resistance the hide has.

Don't even contemplate sewing fire retardant gear with bonded nylon or bonded polyester! It melts way to soon!

Finally, you may get better feeding if you change the feed dog and presser feet to the so called blanket foot set. These items have teeth that grip hard and the feed dog has an almost round needle hole instead of a long slot. If you didn't get this set with the machine, your Cowboy dealer probably stocks them.

[ArtV]

10 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Be sure you can comply with this safety code.  

 NFPA 1851-2014, Section 8 requires that all repairs be performed by the original manufacturer, a verified ISP who has received training or a trained member of the organization. A limited number of basic repairs as defined in NFPA 1851 can be performed by the manufacturer, the organization, manufacturer trained organizations, verified organizations or verified ISPs. Basic repairs are defined as:  Patching of minor tears, char marks and ember burns to an outer shell  Repairing of skipped, broken, and missing stitches to an outer shell  Replacement of missing hardware (excluding closure) to an outer shell  Reclosing the liner of a garment after inspection Advanced repairs as defined in NFPA 1851 can be performed by Quaker Safety, a verified ISP or a verified organization.

I have been a firefighter for 28 years both full time and volunteer. I am aware of NFPA 1851, I am working towards being an ISP. My question is really based off my lack of knowledge when it comes to fabric sewing, if that even pertains to this. The main use for this machine to start with would be my leather work but I would like to branch into gear repair due to the lack of availability in my area. We ship our gear out for repair, as do other area departments due to no local ISP. 

 

Edit.... I realized after I posted this it may have sounded a bit snarky, It is not intended that way, just articulating that I am not new to the rules and regs game in the fire service. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by ArtV

[ArtV]

3 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Assuming you have or will get written permission to sew firefighter turnout gear, the fully capable CB3200 may have to be run with undersize needles and thread. The nominal needle size range is from 23 through 26, covering bonded nylon thread sizes 138 through 346 (Tex 135 through Tex 350). Nomex is rated in Tex sizes, like T60, T70, T90, T135, etc. All of those sizes require smaller needle diameters than those sold for leathercraft sewing. I have purchased round point System 7x3 needles from Bob Kovar in very small diameters, in needle sizes #18, #19, #20 and #22. You will probably need a couple packs of each because the long thin needles are easily deflected and broken. Make sure you buy round point 7x3 and not 794 leather points. The Schmetz "S" point needles that usually ship with Cowboy machines will slice the fire retardant material inline with the stitch line, weakening it. You want perfectly round holes, at the same spacing as the originals.

It will be important to match the thread and needle sizes for the tightest fit. So, you won't want to poke a large hole with a #23 needle while sewing with T90 Nomex. That calls for either a #19 or #20 needle. If you end up using T135 thread, a #22 needle may provide the best tightest fit. In leather you would have to use a #23 needle because of the extra resistance the hide has.

Don't even contemplate sewing fire retardant gear with bonded nylon or bonded polyester! It melts way to soon!

Finally, you may get better feeding if you change the feed dog and presser feet to the so called blanket foot set. These items have teeth that grip hard and the feed dog has an almost round needle hole instead of a long slot. If you didn't get this set with the machine, your Cowboy dealer probably stocks them.

Thank you Whiz.......... that's exactly the info I was looking for. I have not purchased the machine yet but I was looking at the blanket foot with those thoughts in mind. Would the serrated feed dog be of any assistance with this as well? Sorry for being a sewing machine noob.... just trying to make the most out of my investment and we have a need in my area. 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, ArtV said:

Thank you Whiz.......... that's exactly the info I was looking for. I have not purchased the machine yet but I was looking at the blanket foot with those thoughts in mind. Would the serrated feed dog be of any assistance with this as well? Sorry for being a sewing machine noob.... just trying to make the most out of my investment and we have a need in my area. 

I would want to have as wide a set of feet as is available. Fire suits are heavy. If you get a CB3200, order both the harness and blanket feet and feed dogs. Order System 7x3 round point needles for cloth and webbing and System 794 for leather. Bonded nylon thread is the most common for normal use objects. Bonded polyester thread is recommended for outdoor use items. It is UV resistant.

The CB3200 and its larger brothers have super beefy take-up levers and crank shafts. These heavy parts can withstand the stress of passing Nomex and Kevlar thread through the tensioners and guides.

Learn about the breaking strength of various sizes of Nomex. It is much lower than a similar diameter in bonded nylon. This could be an issue along a seam that gets stressed. You might have to use T135 Nomex to secure a seam that would only need T90 bonded thread. Nomex is basically 50% to 60% as strong as bonded nylon of the same Tex size. Here is a good page of details comparing Nomex to other types of thread.

PS: It's Wiz, not Whiz ;-)

[Wizcrafts]

Fire Retardant Sewing Thread Guide

[CowboyBob]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Assuming you have or will get written permission to sew firefighter turnout gear, the fully capable CB3200 may have to be run with undersize needles and thread. The nominal needle size range is from 23 through 26, covering bonded nylon thread sizes 138 through 346 (Tex 135 through Tex 350). Nomex is rated in Tex sizes, like T60, T70, T90, T135, etc. All of those sizes require smaller needle diameters than those sold for leathercraft sewing. I have purchased round point System 7x3 needles from Bob Kovar in very small diameters, in needle sizes #18, #19, #20 and #22. You will probably need a couple packs of each because the long thin needles are easily deflected and broken. Make sure you buy round point 7x3 and not 794 leather points. The Schmetz "S" point needles that usually ship with Cowboy machines will slice the fire retardant material inline with the stitch line, weakening it. You want perfectly round holes, at the same spacing as the originals.

It will be important to match the thread and needle sizes for the tightest fit. So, you won't want to poke a large hole with a #23 needle while sewing with T90 Nomex. That calls for either a #19 or #20 needle. If you end up using T135 thread, a #22 needle may provide the best tightest fit. In leather you would have to use a #23 needle because of the extra resistance the hide has.

Don't even contemplate sewing fire retardant gear with bonded nylon or bonded polyester! It melts way to soon!

Finally, you may get better feeding if you change the feed dog and presser feet to the so called blanket foot set. These items have teeth that grip hard and the feed dog has an almost round needle hole instead of a long slot. If you didn't get this set with the machine, your Cowboy dealer probably stocks them.

I just found out yesterday Organ quit making the 7x3 #18 !! I'm looking for other manufactures but haven't found any.

[Wizcrafts]

10 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

I just found out yesterday Organ quit making the 7x3 #18 !! I'm looking for other manufactures but haven't found any.

Apparently, there are no #18 needles left in System 7x3. The smallest currently available is #19. This lets you sew with #92/T90 thread on your 441 clone harness stitcher.

I detailed the process of "dumbing down a Cowboy CB4500, Cobra Class 4, or similar harness stitcher" on my leatherworks blog. This process lets you sew thin material with thin thread and needles that would otherwise not be possible on a big harness stitcher. I don't recommend this if you already have a standard walking foot machine unless your other machine is a flatbed and you must use a cylinder arm and it is a harness stitcher.

[ArtV]

Wiz........... sorry for the misspelling.       Thanks for the further input and the links.  I read your blog post........... I am assuming this is what I will need to do for the fire gear? 

 

Bob............ thanks for chiming in on this. I am working out some details on my end but I will be calling you in the not so distant future if things go as planned. 

[shoepatcher]

One thing nobody has talked about is what Nomex and Kevlar thread do to all the parts in the thread path.  It wears thru steel.  Know that going in for parts replacement, i.e.  feed dog, hook. throat plate , take up lever, all the thread guides, take up spring!!

glenn

[ArtV]

On 11/7/2020 at 3:17 PM, shoepatcher said:

One thing nobody has talked about is what Nomex and Kevlar thread do to all the parts in the thread path.  It wears thru steel.  Know that going in for parts replacement, i.e.  feed dog, hook. throat plate , take up lever, all the thread guides, take up spring!!

glenn

Thanks for the reminder......... some how I was aware of that but it was not in the for front of my brain. My eventual plan would be to have a dedicated machine for repair but I need to start out dual purpose to see if the repair idea works out. 

[DonInReno]

You should be warned that having a heavy sewing machine around fire guys will create a steady trickle of little projects as favors!   You’ll be altering storage bags, creating custom shaped items, restitching seams in boat seats, dog collars, belts, tool holders from old hose, hot tub cover, leather tool belts, tool covers, adding new padding to backpacking gear, changing zippers of all kinds, custom sun shades, rain tarps, organizers for vehicles, radio harnesses, chainsaw chap repairs, and things you haven’t even thought of yet!  Lol
 

There are not a lot of choices in feet for fabric, unlike smaller upholstery machines, so down the road buy extra outer feet to alter. The thick fabrics that are great for gear bags are very slick so smooth feet don’t do well.

 

Kevlar will quickly dull normal scissors, but the fly tying industry has a number of high quality scissors designed for Kevlar that have carbide edges.

 

 

 

[ArtV]

11 hours ago, DonInReno said:

You should be warned that having a heavy sewing machine around fire guys will create a steady trickle of little projects as favors!   You’ll be altering storage bags, creating custom shaped items, restitching seams in boat seats, dog collars, belts, tool holders from old hose, hot tub cover, leather tool belts, tool covers, adding new padding to backpacking gear, changing zippers of all kinds, custom sun shades, rain tarps, organizers for vehicles, radio harnesses, chainsaw chap repairs, and things you haven’t even thought of yet!  Lol
 

There are not a lot of choices in feet for fabric, unlike smaller upholstery machines, so down the road buy extra outer feet to alter. The thick fabrics that are great for gear bags are very slick so smooth feet don’t do well.

 

Kevlar will quickly dull normal scissors, but the fly tying industry has a number of high quality scissors designed for Kevlar that have carbide edges.

 

 

 

I am keenly aware of this fact… it adds to the fun.  I currently make various leather goods for the fire service and I’m to the point that I could really use a machine. My none-fire goods make more money for me but I don’t get to put as much time into them because of the fire leather side. I can’t keep hand stitching everything, it just takes too long. I started with the fire leather side and don’t won’t to let that slide so I just need to increase efficiency. 
 

Thanks for all the input… it all helps with the decision making. 

[DonInReno]

Paragear has interesting hardware and some fabric.   They cater mainly to skydiving riggers, but have some things not seen in other places.  http://www.paragear.com/parachutes/10000171/PARACHUTE-HARDWARE

 

[ArtV]

On 11/9/2020 at 9:14 PM, DonInReno said:

Paragear has interesting hardware and some fabric.   They cater mainly to skydiving riggers, but have some things not seen in other places.  http://www.paragear.com/parachutes/10000171/PARACHUTE-HARDWARE

 

Cool stuff........ thanks for the link. Already found some things I could use. 

[DonInReno]

On 11/10/2020 at 7:20 PM, ArtV said:

Cool stuff........ thanks for the link. Already found some things I could use. 

30 years ago I acquired an industrial sewing machine for our wildland fire crew -  by the end of the first summer everyone on the crew could sew.   Our budget for any new equipment was pretty tight, but there was never a problem getting approval for material related to repairs!   
 

The aluminum quick release buckles on page one of the are a hit with wildland firefighters on work belts.   At first I only saw the smoke jumpers with them, but over the years they seem to pop up on many of the type one crews.

[ArtV]

22 hours ago, DonInReno said:

30 years ago I acquired an industrial sewing machine for our wildland fire crew -  by the end of the first summer everyone on the crew could sew.   Our budget for any new equipment was pretty tight, but there was never a problem getting approval for material related to repairs!   
 

The aluminum quick release buckles on page one of the are a hit with wildland firefighters on work belts.   At first I only saw the smoke jumpers with them, but over the years they seem to pop up on many of the type one crews.

Funny… those buckles are what I was looking at. Thinking of belts as well. 

[DonInReno]

That’s funny.   

[Smartee]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:03 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Apparently, there are no #18 needles left in System 7x3. The smallest currently available is #19. This lets you sew with #92/T90 thread on your 441 clone harness stitcher.

I detailed the process of "dumbing down a Cowboy CB4500, Cobra Class 4, or similar harness stitcher" on my leatherworks blog. This process lets you sew thin material with thin thread and needles that would otherwise not be possible on a big harness stitcher. I don't recommend this if you already have a standard walking foot machine unless your other machine is a flatbed and you must use a cylinder arm and it is a harness stitcher.

Looking for info on which needle for thread - this post is the best cross reference i've seen for what i'm looking for.  Thread looks to be #90 best I can tell (Tenara 8oz) and calls for a #20 needle for what i'm doing.  So it looks like I need a 7 x 3 #20 to fit my CB3200?

TIA!

[Wizcrafts]

13 hours ago, Smartee said:

Looking for info on which needle for thread - this post is the best cross reference i've seen for what i'm looking for.  Thread looks to be #90 best I can tell (Tenara 8oz) and calls for a #20 needle for what i'm doing.  So it looks like I need a 7 x 3 #20 to fit my CB3200?

TIA!

Yes and no. A #19 needle creates a smaller hole giving a tighter thread fit. This means less water will get into the holes. However, you can use a #20 needle with T90 thread if the material is bulky and you are sewing over thick seams. The larger needle can resist being deflected better. The holes will be a little wider though. It may not matter if the construction deflects water spray anyway.

This advice applies to any gear that will be used outside, like motorcycle and snowmobile seats. Smaller needle holes make for a tighter thread fit and less water penetration..

[Wizcrafts]

I guess it was no coincidence that I felt the need to give some input to this topic. I have a side job sewing blackout window blinds for schoolroom doors. I work 2 days a week sewing these blinds with Nomex thread. When I went to the shop on Sunday there was a full fireman's suit on the Consew table. The Mount Morris fire dept is across the street and they want us (me) to repair their gear! Coincidence? I think not. Kharma?

If I get this gig I will be a lot more active in these discussions. I will need help sourcing some materials. If this topic gets more attention and draws more new members, I will create a new sub-forum to discuss sewing fire fighting gear.

[chrisash]

Sorry Wiz but must ask, "why do schools need blackout blinds for their doors"

[kgg]

3 hours ago, chrisash said:

"why do schools need blackout blinds for their doors"

Normal ones are for blocking sunlight to help keep the room cooler while others are for security. Do a google search for "Hideaway Helper classroom security blinds".

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

7 hours ago, chrisash said:

Sorry Wiz but must ask, "why do schools need blackout blinds for their doors"

Because of active shooter alerts inside schools. The blackout blinds prevent shooters from seeing where the kids are hiding. They are supported by anti-kick-in door locks on the floor, which we also make at Nightlock.