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Why Can't I Pull the Knot Into the Work By Increasing Upper Tension?


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Posted

I just bought a used Singer 42-5. I verified at the seller's that it was sewing properly with the thread left in the machine by the last user. When I got it home and started to clean it up, I again verified that the machine would stitch properly before tearing anything down to clean it. At this point, I did notice that the lower tension seemed absurdly tight but I've never used a shuttle based machine before so I have no frame of reference for how much is too much. After getting a few things cleaned up, I started trying to answer my real question about the machine, which is how big of thread it'll actually use. I wound a bobbin with 207 and re-threaded the whole machine. The machine formed a stitch after that but the knots were all on the bottom of the work. I increased the top tension to try to bring the knots up into the work. No dice. Figuring that maybe I was right about the bottom tension feeling weirdly high, I lowered the bobbin tension until it felt about the same as pulling 138 out of my Consew 206's bobbin case. Still no dice. I then maxed out both of the upper tension adjustments. At this point, the knots would sort of lodge in the hole on the bottom of the work but would not pull into the center of the leather. By feel, the bobbin tension is in the realm that I'm used to from other, properly functioning, machines but the top tension is so tight you can pluck the thread between the takeup lever and the needle, or the takeup lever and the last tension disc, and get a high pitched plink out of it like plucking the string on a violin. I just can't believe this is how things are supposed to be.

 

Any idea what would be causing the knots not to pull up into the work with the top tension so high?

 

Machine: Singer 42-5

Thread: Bonded nylon v207

Needle: Organ 135x16 Size 23 D/TRI point

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Posted

try a larger size needle like metric NM 180 or 200.

~ Keep "OLD CAST IRON" alive - it´s worth it ~

Machines in use: - Singer 111G156 - Singer 307G2 - Singer 29K71 - Singer 212G141 - Singer 45D91 - Singer 132K6 - Singer 108W20 - Singer 51WSV2 - Singer 143W2

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Posted

That #23 needle is definitely too small for #207 thread on top and bottom! I use a #24 needle for that combination.

Just set a modicum of tension on the bobbin spring with #207 and larger thread. Otherwise, the top tension will be waaaaay too tight, as you have learned. Keep in mind that there is no tension release when you lift the feet on this model.

Posted IMHO, by Wiz

My current crop of sewing machines:

Cowboy CB4500, Singer 107w3, Singer 139w109, Singer 168G101, Singer 29k71, Singer 31-15, Singer 111w103, Singer 211G156, Adler 30-7 on power stand, Techsew 2700, Fortuna power skiver and a Pfaff 4 thread 2 needle serger.

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Posted
7 hours ago, Constabulary said:

try a larger size needle like metric NM 180 or 200.

 

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

That #23 needle is definitely too small for #207 thread on top and bottom! I use a #24 needle for that combination.

Just set a modicum of tension on the bobbin spring with #207 and larger thread. Otherwise, the top tension will be waaaaay too tight, as you have learned. Keep in mind that there is no tension release when you lift the feet on this model.

So both of you are recommending a larger needle. The thread vs needle size chart on Bob Kovar's website that this forum links to all the time says to use a 160/#23 with v270 thread. Is that only for fabric and leather requires a bigger needle or is the chart just wrong? If 207 requires a #24, what size is then required for v277 and v346?

 

Also, I have been having trouble finding 135x16 needles in sizes larger than #23. Do you know of a US supply of the larger sizes?

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Posted
57 minutes ago, williaty said:

 

So both of you are recommending a larger needle. The thread vs needle size chart on Bob Kovar's website that this forum links to all the time says to use a 160/#23 with v270 thread. Is that only for fabric and leather requires a bigger needle or is the chart just wrong? If 207 requires a #24, what size is then required for v277 and v346?

 

Also, I have been having trouble finding 135x16 needles in sizes larger than #23. Do you know of a US supply of the larger sizes?

That chart was a little outdated and has now been updated to reflect the real needle sizes for #138 and 207 thread in leather. The smaller sizes may work fine in cloth, or soft chap leather, but not hard temper leather, like holsters use. The leather has a lot of resistance to the knots as the take-up lever tries to do its thing. A tight hole from an undersize needle just makes matters worse.

System 135x16 are too short for a 42-5. Try System 190, Pfaff needles. They can sometimes be found up to a #25, but you may have to order those from Europe. My 42-5 came with a pack of every needle size from 18 through 25. I have a #24 needle in it with #207 Weaver thread, top and bottom.

Posted IMHO, by Wiz

My current crop of sewing machines:

Cowboy CB4500, Singer 107w3, Singer 139w109, Singer 168G101, Singer 29k71, Singer 31-15, Singer 111w103, Singer 211G156, Adler 30-7 on power stand, Techsew 2700, Fortuna power skiver and a Pfaff 4 thread 2 needle serger.

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Posted
16 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

System 135x16 are too short for a 42-5. Try System 190, Pfaff needles. They can sometimes be found up to a #25, but you may have to order those from Europe. My 42-5 came with a pack of every needle size from 18 through 25. I have a #24 needle in it with #207 Weaver thread, top and bottom.

I actually got the idea to use the 135x16 needles form 42-5 owners here on the leatherworker.net forum. I'll see if I can find System 190 needles in the US because ordering from EU, or anywhere not North American, just isn't realistic right now. I'm 4 months out on a still unarrived order from Singapore and my last package from Germany was 13 weeks. Until the pandemic stops and the shipping system is given a chance to recover, that's just not workable.

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Posted

I sometimes even go a needle size bigger (up to a 25 in your case), especially if I'm going through any thick and hard.  The larger needle has a larger groove so the thread pulls up easier with the take up arm.  I have not bought these needles before but I have bought from this seller.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Organ-190LR-MTX190LR-Leather-Sewing-Needles-for-Pfaff-Industrial-Machines/161195915192?hash=item25880677b8:g:F9UAAMXQlgtS0ZJl

Have Consew 255RB-3, Pfaff 545 H4, Chandler 217, Pfaff 138 and Merrow 60W.  

Had a Singer 132K6, Singer 78-3 Consew 28, Consew 18, Singer 31-15 and regret selling each and every one of them :(

Posted

You might check for groves worn in the take up arm and thread guides all along the thread path up top as well as down below.   They may not affect the thinner thread that made the groves, but a slightly thicker thread gets wedged in these groves and can cause constant or intermittent high resistance so tensions are all over the place and can either cause too much tension at the needle or not enough depending on the restriction.

 

  • Members
Posted

OP remember that the material will dictate what is best for the machine. None of these needle/thread charts are rigid standards, they are a guide only and the temper of the material will dictate what is the appropriate needle based on the thread used and the project consideration. 

  • Members
Posted
8 hours ago, sandmanred said:

I sometimes even go a needle size bigger (up to a 25 in your case), especially if I'm going through any thick and hard.  The larger needle has a larger groove so the thread pulls up easier with the take up arm.  I have not bought these needles before but I have bought from this seller.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Organ-190LR-MTX190LR-Leather-Sewing-Needles-for-Pfaff-Industrial-Machines/161195915192?hash=item25880677b8:g:F9UAAMXQlgtS0ZJl

Oh, yeah, I've bought a lot of stuff from them. Thanks!

 

Also, you're all telling me I need to be more flexible on needle choice, so I'll listen. :bike:

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