First sewing machine

[hanns]

Hello,

I am a hobbiest leatherworker and have been saddle stitching everything for years. This can easily add 10+ hours to some of my projects, so for the last maybe year or so I've been mulling getting a machine and lately I've been seriously researching it.

My work mostly consists of flat items made from 8-10 oz bridle leather with a soft leather liner. Total assembly <= 0.3". Not to rule out ever doing anything else, but that's typical for me.

I thought I had found "the one" in the Sailrite Fabricator because it checks all the boxes I've been told to look for:

• Compound walking foot
• Adequate foot height
• Large bobbin
• Can work very slowly at full power (a must for me because I'm new to sewing machines in general, so I'd like to flatten the learning curve as much as possible)
• Parts availability

However I see people say that machine isn't really meant for leatherwork, might struggle, isn't as good as brands like Juki for the money, loses resale value. People recommend Cowboy, Cobra, Juki, Consew. But my problem is price and understanding options. Cowboy and Cobra have a very high cost of entry. Juki has a ton of models and I'm not even sure where to start with them and what kind of motor, reducer, whatever else I'd need to make a good leather setup. Consew seems to be higher priced compared to Sailrite for a 206 once you add the table, motor, reducer, and shipping.

Ideally I'd like to be <=$1500 but could possibly stretch to $2k for a complete setup if the machine were really that much better. I am not opposed to buying used either if it's in good condition, but I don't particularly want to haunt the classifieds for a year hoping something comes up (haven't found anything to date).

I'd appreciate any recommendations you might have in that price range for the type of work I'm trying to do. Or maybe I'm just being unrealistic?

Thanks!

[toxo]

For the future it's really handy if your dealer is local and many dealers don't bother with advertising individual machines if they come and go quickly. My advice would be to phone around and tell them what you want it for. They might tell you a load of crap in which case it was worth the phone call for future reference but you might find a gem of a dealer with whom you'll strike up a relationship that will endure. He might have the machine that you're looking for or if not he might suggest something he has that is maybe just as good and that's when you do your research.

[JJN]

When I was looking for my first machine, I also looked very seriously at the Sailrite Fabricator. It was around $1400 at the time. While looking I found this same Sailrite that someone bought to make a Youtube review and never used it for anything else. It was listed at $1000 and took some time to sell. This might reveal something about resale value of this machine. I think it is a very good machine but I don't have any personal experience with. I finally bought a Juki DNU-1541S for my first machine and felt I make an excellent choice. I bought it from Keystone Sewing Machine Co, located in Pennsylvania, at a great price with free shipping (current price is $1710). Although I have quite a few machines available to me now, this Juki is still my "go-to" machine for most of what I want to sew. You can ask them to put a speed reducer on it too.

https://store.keysew.com/sewing-machines/juki-sewing/juki-dnu-1541s-with-assembled-power-stand-setup-ready-to-sew

 

[kgg]

7 hours ago, hanns said:

Juki has a ton of models

Yes, Juki has a very wide selection of machines for various applications. The flatbed machines I think that would meet your needs in the upholstery class would be the Juki DNU-1541"S" or the heavier and more costly Juki DNU-1508 either dressed with a 550 watt or better dial not digital controlled servo motor. As far as speed reduction I would suggest you give the standard speed / motor configuration a try first. If it works well for your needs you saved that cost to put into other things. Should you fine you need the extra toque or speed control it is a very simple change/add on.

I have a Juki's 1541S, 1181N and Kobe 1341 (clone of Juki 341) that I mainly use with no speed reduction and they work just fine. My personal thought is if I really need to add speed reduction to get enough "torque" to get the job done I am using the wrong machine and need to move up to another class of machine. If it is for speed control then I may have to think about adding a speed reducer or changing the motor.

The ideal thing would be to go to a dealer with your thickest stuff, the thread you are planning on using and give a few machines a test drive.

Buy Once, Cry Once

kgg

 

[hanns]

9 hours ago, JJN said:

 I finally bought a Juki DNU-1541S for my first machine and felt I make an excellent choice.

Thank you. The 1541S is one I've seen mentioned a few times and am looking into seriously now. I had seen prices of $2k shipped, but Keystone seems to beat that by a fair bit, making it more accessible. Thanks for the link.

6 hours ago, kgg said:

The flatbed machines I think that would meet your needs in the upholstery class would be the Juki DNU-1541"S" or the heavier and more costly Juki DNU-1508 either dressed with a 550 watt or better dial not digital controlled servo motor.

...

The ideal thing would be to go to a dealer with your thickest stuff, the thread you are planning on using and give a few machines a test drive.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am definitely going to do more research around the 1541S. I agree going in person would be ideal. Keystone is about an hour away from me if I want to deal with city driving. Might be worth a visit.

[DonInReno]

I highly recommend a speed reducer of some kind if you can swing it.  It’s especially useful for leather or other intricate sewing, but just as important it makes learning to sew with an industrial less stressful - you’ll have enough of a learning curve without being frustrated with a lack of low speed torque.  No servo will have decent torque at the lowest speeds - that’s why there are 100 discussions here on how to improve low speed performance and zero on how to speed things up.

Honestly it’s the single best investment to improve the entire experience, and if a new machine is set up for a speed reducer it saves the hassle of a retrofit.

[hanns]

37 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

I highly recommend a speed reducer of some kind if you can swing it.  It’s especially useful for leather or other intricate sewing, but just as important it makes learning to sew with an industrial less stressful - you’ll have enough of a learning curve without being frustrated with a lack of low speed torque.  No servo will have decent torque at the lowest speeds - that’s why there are 100 discussions here on how to improve low speed performance and zero on how to speed things up.

Honestly it’s the single best investment to improve the entire experience, and if a new machine is set up for a speed reducer it saves the hassle of a retrofit.

This is actually one of the things that really appealed to me about the Fabricator package. It comes with their Workhorse brushless servo motor that delivers high torque at the slowest speed (here's someone else's video demonstrating it versus typical brushed servos), making the learning curve much easier. You can move the needle in small increments out of the box without the need for a reducer and still have the penetrating power to go through material thicker than I usually work with. The last thing I want is to ruin a nearly-complete project because the machine got away from me, so you're right - this is a big consideration for me.

What would be cool is finding something like the 1541S set up with a brushless servo like that out of the gate to save the expense of a reducer replacing the standard brushed servo. Either that, or the machine + table with no motor and add the Workhorse or similar myself.

[chrisash]

I think you will find most modern servo motors are brushless

[dikman]

Yes, pretty well all of the generic servos out of China are brushless and have been for a few years. That Sailrite servo is a nice compact all-in-one unit BUT if you mount it under the table you will have to get down on your knees and scrabble around under the table every time you want to make any adjustments to the controller.

[DonInReno]

There’s more than a little marketing with all the claims of slow speed performance in the servos.    
 

The sailrite motor is a rebranded Reliable sewquiet motor.

https://reliablecorporation.com/products/sewquiet-6000sm-servomotor

 

[hanns]

1 hour ago, DonInReno said:

There’s more than a little marketing with all the claims of slow speed performance in the servos.    
 

The sailrite motor is a rebranded Reliable sewquiet motor.

https://reliablecorporation.com/products/sewquiet-6000sm-servomotor

 

Good to know! This is one of the things that makes navigating the sewing machine world, uh, interesting. Clones and rebrands of rebrands lol. But the Workhorse or SewQuiet motor does seem to do the job well in third party tests I've seen regardless of the marketing.

Shop "local" to me (not really, but it's not like there's an industrial sewing machine dealer on every corner) has a refurbished Juki 1541 non-S for under-budget. Also a refurb Consew 226 for just under a grand. I'm waiting to hear back from them, but whenever I do I'll ask about those and what they recommend for the best slow speed performance.

Edited March 6, 2021 by hanns

[kgg]

6 hours ago, dikman said:

Yes, pretty well all of the generic servos out of China are brushless and have been for a few years.

Sorry dikeman, I have to disagree. Most of what is being supplied by the dealers in North America appear to be servo motors that have the small knob speed dial and they come with a spare set of brushes. There are a few dealers like Reliable and Sailrite that offer the 12 coil brushless servo motors and Consew also has a brushless series of motors but I couldn't fine information as to how many coils they have. I suspect 6 or 9 coils. The more coils equals a better brushless motor. My thought is for most use if a brush motor is properly broken in under no load, it should provide a lot of decent service.

 

3 hours ago, hanns said:

Shop "local" to me (not really, but it's not like there's an industrial sewing machine dealer on every corner) has a refurbished Juki 1541 non-S for under-budget. Also a refurb Consew 226 for just under a grand.

I would pass on the Juki 1541 for the main fact that it doesn't have the safety mechanism. When you jam the machine up at some point not having that feature could be a costly mistake. I would also pass on the Consew 226 unless it is in the 500 to 600 dollar range. That would put it at about 40 percent of a new equivalent, Consew 206 Rb-5, at around the $1400 mark. Also if I am not mistake the 226 has a smaller bobbin. Some things to consider.

kgg

[JJN]

Work out a deal for the 1541s with Keystone where you pick it up to eliminate their shipping cost and trade that cost for an upgrade to the Reliable brushless motor. They have them.

[hanns]

7 hours ago, kgg said:

Most of what is being supplied by the dealers in North America appear to be servo motors that have the small knob speed dial and they come with a spare set of brushes.

These are the motors I keep seeing everywhere on new machines, so I was confused when I kept being told everything's brushless now.

7 hours ago, kgg said:

I would pass on the Juki 1541 for the main fact that it doesn't have the safety mechanism. When you jam the machine up at some point not having that feature could be a costly mistake.

Is this a problem unique to the 1541? Or do all the other machines already have some kind of safety mechanism and don't need a special model for it?

6 hours ago, JJN said:

Work out a deal for the 1541s with Keystone where you pick it up to eliminate their shipping cost and trade that cost for an upgrade to the Reliable brushless motor. They have them.

That's a good idea. I would actually like to visit in person to see how the machine works and discuss options before buying, but I'm not sure if they have in-store operations right now due to covid. I'm waiting to hear back on that.

Edited March 6, 2021 by hanns

[hanns]

Researching the motors Keystone has, this seems interesting. Basically the same promise as the SewQuiet, but more powerful and detached control box.

Video I found demonstrating it:

 

[kgg]

1 hour ago, hanns said:

Is this a problem unique to the 1541? Or do all the other machines already have some kind of safety mechanism and don't need a special model for it?

This not unique to the Juki 1541 they just gave the consumer an option to save a 100 bucks over the 1541"S" and are willing to run the risk. There are a lot of machines both brand name and clones that do not have this feature. Since you mention the Sailrite Fabricator in your original post, if I am not mistaken, the Sailrite Fabricator does not appear to have a safety mechanism (clutch) that can be reset as easily. Sailrite approached the problem by using basically a shear pin on the sewing machines drive pulley that would need to be replaced should a problem occur. Which is fine if you have a spare laying around.  Maybe just me but I think just being able to depress a button and hand wheel to reset the safety mechanism (clutch) is easier with little down time after you clear the jam.

kgg

[DonInReno]

I have purchased that sew pro 1100 motor from Keystone after the recommendations from a few members here that have tried a number of servos including the Reliable.   The 1100 watts makes this a big powerful motor with great low speed torque.   It appears all the 1100 watt motors on the market are nearly identical in appearance and price - probably the same manufacturer.   Even though it comes with a needle positioner, when used with a speed reducer, it isn’t needed - there’s enough control to simply stop the needle wherever you want it to stop.

The only catch with this motor is the $300ish price.     At this price most low speed sewers would be better off with a $150 servo and speed reducer.    

Edit:  I tried to find the discussion of the 1100 watt motor, but it’s buried in one of the “which servo to get” posts.   The servo posts from the past few years are worth reading - a lot of wisdom.

Edited March 6, 2021 by DonInReno

[hanns]

17 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

The only catch with this motor is the $300ish price.     At this price most low speed sewers would be better off with a $150 servo and speed reducer.

This is something else I was thinking about: cheap motor with a reducer vs expensive motor without. If the motor dies, swap in another cheap one. Reducer is just a big wheel - not likely to die. Might be a more robust long-term setup for a similar up-front cost.

19 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

The servo posts from the past few years are worth reading - a lot of wisdom.

I'll see if I can dig those up and point my research in that direction since the "which machine to get" question seems to be coalescing around the 1541S, both here and in my other research as a machine that would handle my current needs and provide some room to grow.

25 minutes ago, kgg said:

Maybe just me but I think just being able to depress a button and hand wheel to reset the safety mechanism (clutch) is easier with little down time after you clear the jam.

Particularly for me, who has no experience using sewing machines other than practicing some hems on our old Singer home machine right now. I'm likely to screw this up! Okay, I'm sold on the safety mechanism.

[DonInReno]

The trick to searching for posts here is to use google, but add site:leatherworker.net

I found the post that convinced me to buy the motor:

 

[hanns]

26 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

The trick to searching for posts here is to use google, but add site:leatherworker.net

I found the post that convinced me to buy the motor:

 

Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to dig that up and the tip on searching. I had a read-through and I have to admit, I really like the idea of a beefy motor with high torque at very slow speeds to keep the setup simple.

Earlier you said:

1 hour ago, DonInReno said:

The only catch with this motor is the $300ish price.     At this price most low speed sewers would be better off with a $150 servo and speed reducer.   

A reducer from Keystone costs $186: https://store.keysew.com/parts/sewing-parts/sr-2

Add $130-150 for a motor, and you're well over the cost of the SP-1100-NPFL. So the only real advantage I can think of is if the motor dies, your replacement cost isn't as much. Are there other advantages to the reducer setup you're thinking of? I'll go through the other threads, but figured I'd ask since you mentioned it.

[toxo]

Like dikman I've replaced the hand wheel on both my machines and it works like a charm. Can't see why it's not promoted more on here. Perhaps forum loyalty? All I know is a 250mm pulley on my Adler 69 with a 550w Jack  motor with a 40mm pulley gives all the torque I'll ever need, I can do one stitch at a time and use a Jack needle positioner, Cost around £30, time to do? about an hour. I know matt had trouble with his synchro and I did as well until I found the set screw was moving. Due to the extra width of the 250mm pulley the original synchro bolt wasn't long enough and I had to get an extra bit for that which I think was around £12. Now I can stop up/down at will. There's a post with a video somewhere on here along with the bill for the parts.

It does amuse me when I read about extra shafts and pulleys and pillow blocks that take about a week to put together.

[DonInReno]

You’re in quite a good situation - either way will be a very nice setup.   The drop down menu for motor options on that Keystone package shows a lower price on the reducer. 

The speed someone sews at varies not only on the type of product, but also personal preference - I sew at a relaxed pace in general, but many projects are new to me so I’m extra careful about material alignment and placing each stitch.  For this style a 5:1 reducer is my favorite, but I also have a 7:1 reducer that was overkill, but still worked just fine. 

On the other hand a friend of mine sews a lot of belts and dog collars - she can whip em out quick and doesn’t want anything that slows down the machine too much.

If you go with a big motor you may not need a reducer....

 

[hanns]

21 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

You’re in quite a good situation - either way will be a very nice setup.   The drop down menu for motor options on that Keystone package shows a lower price on the reducer. 

...

The speed someone sews at varies not only on the type of product, but also personal preference

Although my work is similar to your friend's, I'm personally a klutz so I'll be doing things very deliberately - especially early on when learning the machine.

Hmm, $10 difference is negligible. My inclination is toward the 1100 for slow speed torque out of the gate and ability to easily ramp up should I ever want to by pressing a few buttons.

Again, appreciate your input. It's helping me scope this down to what I believe will be a very nice setup that handles what I normally do now, with plenty of headroom to spare.

[dikman]

16 hours ago, kgg said:

Sorry dikeman, I have to disagree. Most of what is being supplied by the dealers in North America appear to be servo motors that have the small knob speed dial and they come with a spare set of brushes. There are a few dealers like Reliable and Sailrite that offer the 12 coil brushless servo motors and Consew also has a brushless series of motors but I couldn't fine information as to how many coils they have. I suspect 6 or 9 coils. The more coils equals a better brushless motor. My thought is for most use if a brush motor is properly broken in under no load, it should provide a lot of decent service.

kgg

I stand (or at the moment sit) corrected then. I based my statement on my experiences and those knob-control brush-type servos aren't common here in Oz whereas the generic brushless are everywhere! When you can find a knob-control unit they are expensive!

[DonInReno]

8 hours ago, toxo said:

Like dikman I've replaced the hand wheel on both my machines and it works like a charm. Can't see why it's not promoted more on here. 

I’ve also wondered why many people are hesitant to get rid of the factory hand wheel.

Personally I like a big cast iron hand wheel, especially if it looks like a vintage factory part.