Durkopp Adler 239-125 Missing Oil Pan / Timing?

[machineage]

Hi everyone!

One of the machines I acquired is a Durkopp Adler 239-125. I'm just about to try & sort it out. I managed to find a manual online, but it describes an oil pan under the hook mechanism. However my machine doesn't have this oil pan, and the mechanism is also different to that illustrated in the manual. Does anyone here have a 239-125 and can clarify?

I'm also looking to find any information with regards timing / setting up of the machine.

Thanks!

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by machineage

[toxo]

I have one of these but I'm certainly no expert. The manual pic is for a twin needle machine. The oil pan is filled with felt usually. If you PM me with an email address I'll send you what I have. Too much to post on here but I warn you, it'll frustrate you as it does me.

Someone will come along like Constabulary or Uwe who know the ins and out of a cat whatsit about these German machines.

[shoepatcher]

Looks like a copy of a Singer 111w156.  If so, the singer manual should work.

glenn

Edited April 26, 2021 by shoepatcher

[DonInReno]

Isn’t that the side of an oil pan?   On these older machines oil drip pans are all sorts of styles.   Many of us remove the metal pan and simple attach a piece of leather under the machine - when it’s oil soaked just change it out.

I’d check out Uwe’s YouTube videos on hook timing on his Consew 225 - you will see the mechanism is very similar to yours and the clearances are essentially the same with 95% of all upholstery style flat bed machines.

In a nutshell, when the the needle hits the bottom of its travel and rises the thickness of a nickel, that’s when the point of the hook should be inline with the needle, 1/16” above the eye of the needle, and the gap should be as close to the needle as possible without deflecting it.   These four things have to happen.   A fifth part of hook timing would be the condition of the hook point - it has to be the correct shape and fairly sharp.   A bent hook will be hard to adjust and might cause needle guard issues.   A blunt hook will be more likely to grab or shred thread, or skip stitches.

[toxo]

14 hours ago, DonInReno said:

Isn’t that the side of an oil pan?   On these older machines oil drip pans are all sorts of styles.   Many of us remove the metal pan and simple attach a piece of leather under the machine - when it’s oil soaked just change it out.

I’d check out Uwe’s YouTube videos on hook timing on his Consew 225 - you will see the mechanism is very similar to yours and the clearances are essentially the same with 95% of all upholstery style flat bed machines.

In a nutshell, when the the needle hits the bottom of its travel and rises the thickness of a nickel, that’s when the point of the hook should be inline with the needle, 1/16” above the eye of the needle, and the gap should be as close to the needle as possible without deflecting it.   These four things have to happen.   A fifth part of hook timing would be the condition of the hook point - it has to be the correct shape and fairly sharp.   A bent hook will be hard to adjust and might cause needle guard issues.   A blunt hook will be more likely to grab or shred thread, or skip stitches.

That's part of the fibre board catch all tray that runs the length of the machine. The oil tray shown at the bottom of the manual pic is the right one.

[toxo]

15 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

Looks like a copy of a Singer 111w156.  If so, the singer manual should work.

glenn

Very similar except I don't think the Singer has reverse. The 239 does.

[machineage]

Thanks all!

@DonInReno There's a catch-all oil pan beneath the machine, but it appears there should also be a small oil pan / reservoir beneath the hook mechanism? I will check out Uwe's video regards the timing, and carry out more research.

@toxo is yours a 239-125, and if so does it have the small oil pan and / or the catch-all pan?

I found a Durkopp 239-125 that sold recently, and a photo of the underside appears to show the small oil pan beneath the hook mechanism. Durkopp's 239 parts manual also details the pan (249323) with the felt pad (249325), see enclosed photos.

Thanks again  

Edited April 27, 2021 by machineage

[DonInReno]

13 hours ago, toxo said:

That's part of the fibre board catch all tray that runs the length of the machine. The oil tray shown at the bottom of the manual pic is the right one.

I don’t see the advantage of one kind of tray over the other if all they are doing is catching oil drips.   If the idea is the felt in the small pan keeps the lower hook bearing lubricated, that’s not needed if it’s oiled every day, but more importantly it wouldn’t oil the upper hook bushing that is more prone to wear.

[machineage]

On 4/28/2021 at 3:49 AM, DonInReno said:

I don’t see the advantage of one kind of tray over the other if all they are doing is catching oil drips.   If the idea is the felt in the small pan keeps the lower hook bearing lubricated, that’s not needed if it’s oiled every day, but more importantly it wouldn’t oil the upper hook bushing that is more prone to wear.

Thanks @DonInReno 

In the manual it reads: 'The felt in the oil drip pan must always be sufficiently saturated with oil and must be in contact with the toothed wheels of the hook drive'

I don't hold out much hope of finding one of those pans! As you say though, if the lower hook bearing & toothed wheels are manually & regularly oiled, hopefully that will suffice.

I have oiled the machine, and it's running very nicely now. However, I've discovered a couple more problems, one of which I need advice on. I found there was a missing screw on the bobbin tension spring, so I'll source a replacement. The hook looks OK to me? It feels nice & sharp.

A more concerning problem though - I noticed what I thought was a missing screw that secures the feed dog to the feed fork. However on removing the feed dog, it looks like the screw has snapped and the thread is still in there 

The eccentric feed fork looks like it could be quite difficult to remove, if replacements are available, could anyone advise? I could try removing the screw thread, I have some left-hand drill bits, and some screw extractors somewhere. It's a very small screw though...

[Constabulary]

Needle hook timing values are the same as for the Singer 111 - partially you can use a Singer 111 manual for this machine thought they have a different stitch length adjuster and so forth but they share a lot of parts which are interchangeable.

You do not need the oil tray. Singer and Dürkopp are using the exact same hook saddle and both Co´s had this hook oil tray in their machines but both did it away one day. Just oil the hook regularly and nothing will happen. You can use Singer 111 hooks in your machine. But since you have an original Dürkopp hook you an just switch out the top part and leave the hook shaft in place. Take out the bobbin case and you will find a screw in the center of the hook, remove the screw and you can separate hook and hook shaft (if not gummed with old oil). You can buy new hooks dirt cheap for approx 10 - 15 bucks

I´m very confident this hook will work:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/254104332249

But you probably have to adjust the hook saddle a bit sideways. I bought a few of these hooks (GEH 810 / GEH 820) when I restored my 51w. They fit but hook tip is a bit longer but cannot adjust the hook sideways but I figured I can use them in my 111G156 with a Dürkopp hook shaft. Difference is the 820 has a build in needle deflector and the 810 needs a separate deflector (same as on your Dürkopp hook).

Feed forks are the same as for the Singer 111 and similar models. I installed one in a friends 239 a while ago. Singer parts number is 224052 (Juki & Seiko are using them as well)

This thread may be useful for you:

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/77946-singer-111w155-feed-lifting-cam-slop/

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Constabulary

[machineage]

Thanks @Constabulary

The top part of the hook looks OK I think, would there be a reason to replace it? A replacement through is very cheap, thanks for that!

I checked for play between the fork & the cam, and there is hardly any play. I can't get a sheet of paper between the fork & the cam, so I guess this is some good news? The fork has the oil soaked felt to keep the two lubricated.

As for the feed dog, I used an incorrect description above, I meant to say the feed dog is secured to the feed bar, not the feed fork. I can see the bar is secured with the feed bar hinge screw, one side of which is just accessible with a slotted head, but the other side (hexagonal nut head) is inaccessible. I tried to unscrew the hinge screw, without success so far.

But now I see another problem... There isn't enough room to remove the hinge screw, either to the left or the right side, because it will hit the base casting before it can be removed given its length 

The only way I can see to remove the feed bar, is to remove the feed driving rock shaft first.

Has anyone removed one of these feed bars?

Thanks again

Edited April 30, 2021 by machineage

[DonInReno]

11 hours ago, machineage said:

A more concerning problem though - I noticed what I thought was a missing screw that secures the feed dog to the feed fork. However on removing the feed dog, it looks like the screw has snapped and the thread is still in there 

That is a bummer!   A left hand drill bit would be ideal if you could get the right angle.

Im just thinking out loud, but it might be worth trying to degrease the screw and put a tiny drop of jb weld on the end of a cut off round toothpick....if the screw is really loose in the hole it might have enough torque to gently back it out?

Ive never had the patience to scratch a slot in a broken off screw, but I have seen a watch maker carefully grind a very small sharp chisel point on the end of a die file and over the course of an hour scratched enough of a slot that a very small eye glass screwdriver backed the screw out.   I would need a magnifying glass to see what was happening.

[machineage]

Thanks @DonInReno

Some good ideas there!

I really needed to get this feed bar out, it's just impossible to get decent access to the stuck thread with the feed bar in situ.

So....

I removed the feed fork, simple enough. I then marked the feed drive rocking shaft for both rotation & lateral positioning where it is clamped. I then loosened the shaft clamp screws, and the grub screws for the two stop collars. I was then able to move the shaft to the left, and rotate it to gain access to the feed bar hinge screw and nut. Removing this screw released the feed bar.

So now I need to contemplate removing the stuck thread! I will see if I have a small enough left-hand drill bit first!

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by machineage

[shoepatcher]

Use a small left hand drill smaller than screw  to drill a small hole in the screw.  I would look for a titanium coated drill in left hand twist. The drill working in reverse may back out the screw. Be careful not to bogger up the threads in the feed bar.

glenn

Edited May 2, 2021 by shoepatcher

[machineage]

4 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

Use a small left hand drill smaller than screw  to drill a small hole in the screw.  I would look for a titanium coated drill in left hand twist. The drill working in reverse may back out the screw. Be careful not to bogger up the threads in the feed bar.

glenn

The smallest I had was 3mm, which was too big, so I ordered some 1mm & 2mm bits yesterday. I've had good results with L/H bits before, so fingers crossed they work again!

Edited May 2, 2021 by machineage

[machineage]

The 1mm & 2mm left hand bits arrived today. I drilled a short pilot first into the snapped thread, then went at it with the 2mm bit, and hoorah 

These left hand bits have gotten me out of a fair few sticks in the past, and they saved the day again!

I'll source a replacement screw for the feed dog, and the bobbin, then start the process of timing the machine.

Edited May 6, 2021 by machineage

[Constabulary]

as far as I recall they are the same as for the Singer 111 feed dog - but I´m not 100% sure.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/200106-feed-dog-screw-singer-111w.html

Maybe worth checking with College Sewing anyway.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Constabulary

[machineage]

Thanks @Constabulary

I’m drawing up my list of parts to buy for this machine from College Sewing, which include a new belt, bobbin winder and cotton stand.

They looked at a Durkopp parts list to check availability & pricing, and a number of parts are not stocked or have very long lead times, if indeed they are still made. I did suggest this machine was very similar to Singer machines, but they wouldn’t guarantee any of the Singer parts fitted, and didn’t offer them. So I’ll take my chances I guess.

I tried the feed dog screw from my Singer 211G166 and that fits, so I guess part #200106 from College sewing will be correct. The presser foot screw is also missing, but again the screw from my Singer fits, so I will order #201031

One of the screws that’s missing and causing problems is the bobbin case tension spring fixing screw. Whilst the bobbin case on my Singer looks almost identical, the tension spring fixing screw won’t fit the Durkopp bobbin case. It’s slightly too large in diameter.

The other is the rear throat plate screw. This is the same size thread as the feed dog screws which fit, but obviously a different type of screw.

Thanks again