You can't afford starting with leathercraft?

[Klara]

8 hours ago, Danne said:

But I guess you had to sharpen it? Because at least when I bought that punch set years ago, it was far from a hole punch.

The "cutting edge" was 0.3mm thick. 

 

I don't have the exact set I linked, I just wanted to show what I meant. I bought my set years ago in a saddle shop.

@Spyros I also broke my first tiny hole thingy when I used a piece of wood as support. Then I bought the Ertalon support. So far it helps. And I never said that other punches are not needed, only that you can't say a beginner will need a big budget to buy punches when said beginner might not need them at all...

Out of curiosity: What are the huge hole punches used for? My leather shop had them on special, but I couldn't think of a need for approx. 4/5-inch holes.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Klara

[Spyros]

12 hours ago, mike02130 said:

A watch strap requires one hole punch.  Wallets and most handbags don't require a punch unless you are making an adjustable shoulder strap; and then, it is only one punch.  No "setters" are needed.  So, 1 set of irons, and two punches is how much money?  Hmm, you could even throw in a Japanese cutting/skiving knife and a creaser.  

 

 

How do you make holes for different size rivets, grommets, buckles, sam brownes, chicago screws etc without an appropriate punch? 

And how do you set spring snaps, eyelets, double cap rivets, saddle rivets without a setter and a metal base? 

I mean sure you can skip all that and only use the rivets that match your one size hole, and mash them with a hammer on the bench until they're flat, but in my mind that's kind of dumb to restrict yourself like that just for the sake of avoiding the proper tools. 

[Spyros]

7 hours ago, Klara said:

Out of curiosity: What are the huge hole punches used for? My leather shop had them on special, but I couldn't think of a need for approx. 4/5-inch holes.

I've never seen a 4-5 inch hole punch, I don't know.

Various size round hole punches are typically used for grommets, holes for pull strings, cutting circles for various uses like reinforcements behind hardware, etc

[Spyros]

7 hours ago, Klara said:

 

@Spyros And I never said that other punches are not needed, only that you can't say a beginner will need a big budget to buy punches when said beginner might not need them at all...

I'd hardly call a $500 tool budget "big", for a hobby that can actually make you money pretty much from the get go.   A couple of punches, a strap cutter, a beveller and a few days of practice and you're making sellable belts.  

[fredk]

8 hours ago, Klara said:

Out of curiosity: What are the huge hole punches used for? My leather shop had them on special, but I couldn't think of a need for approx. 4/5-inch holes.

The largest hole punch I had was about 3.5 inches diameter. They are used for punching holes in special gasket material for mainly engine head gaskets on internal combustion powered vehicles, or for other fittings on the vehicles.  In the vintage car world you need to make your own gaskets. On my 1930 Austin 7 there are several items which need gaskets and I need to cut and punch these myself as replacements are no longer available to buy. On some fittings oiled leather is the choice material for the gasket.

[Danne]

6 hours ago, Spyros said:

How do you make holes for different size rivets, grommets, buckles, sam brownes, chicago screws etc without an appropriate punch? 

And how do you set spring snaps, eyelets, double cap rivets, saddle rivets without a setter and a metal base? 

I mean sure you can skip all that and only use the rivets that match your one size hole, and mash them with a hammer on the bench until they're flat, but in my mind that's kind of dumb to restrict yourself like that just for the sake of avoiding the proper tools. 

Of course there will be things you can't do as a beginner if you start with a very limited budget. And for someone with a very limited budget (which this thread is about) it's possible to buy punches when they are needed. And not everything you do requires a lot of punches. I just recently bought a set of high quality hole punches, before that I had a revolving hole punch. Found it in a leather shop, the name is Stahl and produced in Germany, and I payed 20euro. The main reason I bought a set, was because I needed smaller holes than my revolving hole punch could make. I could have bought one SPC (Chinese made) hole punch, instead of a quite expensive set and it would have worked fine for me right now.

6 hours ago, Spyros said:

I'd hardly call a $500 tool budget "big", for a hobby that can actually make you money pretty much from the get go.   A couple of punches, a strap cutter, a beveller and a few days of practice and you're making sellable belts.  

You may find this a little bit rude, but I'm not really sure if you are living in the same world as I do. An example. Some of us who do this only as a hobby could buy a new band knife splitter, but choose not too because it's hard to justify for hobby use, but it wouldn't be a big investment. For a lot of people it would be a big investment though. And I don't think 500usd is a big budget for starting a new hobby. I just recently did a small woodworking project and had no woodworking tools. Just basic things in decent quality did cost a lot more (I didn't buy the cheapest tools, but not Festool either) 

But nothing of this matter for a person who doesn't have 500usd. As an example I think in Vietnam the average income is around 350usd/month. (Yes it's not the same CPI, and it's cheaper to live there) But i'm quite certain there are a lot of people there who can't pay 500usd to start with a new hobby. 

If we talk about US instead, there are a lot of people who need multiple jobs to pay for rent, and put food on the table. 

This was the reason I wrote this topic. Because I'm sure there are a lot of people who visit this place, and wish they could start this hobby, and practice and become good enough to be able to start selling, or just because they enjoy to craft things. And then they see recommendations of tools that cost way too much, and even a set of budget Japanese tools are over their budget. And they feel like they need those tools to start, which is not true.

Is it better to spend a little bit more on beginner tools if someone can afford it? Yes, but buying really expensive tools as a beginner isn't the best idea either in my opinion. When I started this craft I bought cheaper tools (Mostly Japanese budget tools) not because I couldn't afford the expensive ones. But because I wasn't sure if this was a hobby for me or not. And if I would have bought for example a really expensive set of pricking irons instead of the ones I bought from Goodsjapan, I would have bought Japanese style pricking/punching irons, which would have been a mistake because I prefer the "European style" 

 

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, fredk said:

The largest hole punch I had was about 3.5 inches diameter. They are used for punching holes in special gasket material for mainly engine head gaskets on internal combustion powered vehicles, or for other fittings on the vehicles.  In the vintage car world you need to make your own gaskets. On my 1930 Austin 7 there are several items which need gaskets and I need to cut and punch these myself as replacements are no longer available to buy. On some fittings oiled leather is the choice material for the gasket.

would be great at cutting coasters out! mug bottoms and the like.

[chuck123wapati]

So whatcha all makin? "leather work" covers a BIIIG subject. 500 buck budget to makes shoes? 500 buck budget to make wallets?  500 buck budget to make saddles? 500 buck budget to make leather coasters?

Pretty much an open ended question isn't it? 

 i will give some of you folks from other places a little heads up not all US citizens are rich or even close to it, many don't have even a hundred bucks to spend on a hobby. I for one have to make my tools, buy used or find a decent substitute i already own. 

[mike02130]

9 hours ago, Spyros said:

How do you make holes for different size rivets, grommets, buckles, sam brownes, chicago screws etc without an appropriate punch? 

And how do you set spring snaps, eyelets, double cap rivets, saddle rivets without a setter and a metal base? 

I mean sure you can skip all that and only use the rivets that match your one size hole, and mash them with a hammer on the bench until they're flat, but in my mind that's kind of dumb to restrict yourself like that just for the sake of avoiding the proper tools. 

The more you argue, the less sense you make.  Like I said in the post that your comment is quoted from, Wallets, handbags and watch straps don't use all that hardware that you can not imagine living without.  Perhaps you are just not aware of finer leather goods?

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, mike02130 said:

The more you argue, the less sense you make.  Like I said in the post that your comment is quoted from, Wallets, handbags and watch straps don't use all that hardware that you can not imagine living without.  Perhaps you are just not aware of finer leather goods?

I am aware, just not interested.

[Spyros]

15 hours ago, Danne said:

Of course there will be things you can't do as a beginner if you start with a very limited budget. And for someone with a very limited budget (which this thread is about) it's possible to buy punches when they are needed. And not everything you do requires a lot of punches. I just recently bought a set of high quality hole punches, before that I had a revolving hole punch. Found it in a leather shop, the name is Stahl and produced in Germany, and I payed 20euro. The main reason I bought a set, was because I needed smaller holes than my revolving hole punch could make. I could have bought one SPC (Chinese made) hole punch, instead of a quite expensive set and it would have worked fine for me right now.

You may find this a little bit rude, but I'm not really sure if you are living in the same world as I do. An example. Some of us who do this only as a hobby could buy a new band knife splitter, but choose not too because it's hard to justify for hobby use, but it wouldn't be a big investment. For a lot of people it would be a big investment though. And I don't think 500usd is a big budget for starting a new hobby. I just recently did a small woodworking project and had no woodworking tools. Just basic things in decent quality did cost a lot more (I didn't buy the cheapest tools, but not Festool either) 

But nothing of this matter for a person who doesn't have 500usd. As an example I think in Vietnam the average income is around 350usd/month. (Yes it's not the same CPI, and it's cheaper to live there) But i'm quite certain there are a lot of people there who can't pay 500usd to start with a new hobby. 

If we talk about US instead, there are a lot of people who need multiple jobs to pay for rent, and put food on the table. 

This was the reason I wrote this topic. Because I'm sure there are a lot of people who visit this place, and wish they could start this hobby, and practice and become good enough to be able to start selling, or just because they enjoy to craft things. And then they see recommendations of tools that cost way too much, and even a set of budget Japanese tools are over their budget. And they feel like they need those tools to start, which is not true.

Is it better to spend a little bit more on beginner tools if someone can afford it? Yes, but buying really expensive tools as a beginner isn't the best idea either in my opinion. When I started this craft I bought cheaper tools (Mostly Japanese budget tools) not because I couldn't afford the expensive ones. But because I wasn't sure if this was a hobby for me or not. And if I would have bought for example a really expensive set of pricking irons instead of the ones I bought from Goodsjapan, I would have bought Japanese style pricking/punching irons, which would have been a mistake because I prefer the "European style" 

 

No I'm not finding it rude, it's fine.  I get what you're saying.

And sure, you can start the hobby with $100, ok.  And you can make specific things with that, fair enough.  And there are many ways to skin a cat, and you can make many or most projects without using hardly any hardware, that's a fair point too.

What I am saying however is that those people who can't afford a bigger budget than $100, at the very least deserve a warning upfront that when they try to do the most common stuff that they will (inevitably) see on youtube and etsy, which is where most people get their leatherworking education these days, they will probably get frustrated as they realise they just don't have the equipment for it.  And then it's up to them.

I'm just talking about practical issues, at least I'm not arguing about the merits of chasing every garage sale or eating noodles for weeks to save money until you're able to find or buy a head knife that is made not in China.

[Klara]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:08 AM, Spyros said:

And how do you set spring snaps, eyelets, double cap rivets, saddle rivets without a setter and a metal base? 

Why this obsession with rivets? I much prefer sewing... 

As for making money - I believe people should learn a craft first, properly, and then think about selling their product. Besides, in my experience selling isn't all that easy...

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Klara

[Danne]

7 minutes ago, Klara said:

Why this obsession with rivets? I much prefer sewing... 

As for making money - firstly I believe people should learn a craft first, properly, and then think about selling their product. Besides, in my experience selling isn't all that easy...

 

It took me years of practice before people where interested in buying from me, or at least willing to pay for the hours I spend on making something. Now I get requests now and then (even though I mention I don't sell anything and the reason is that I don't have a splitting solution, which I need to be able to stock a range of different leather to choose from) 

But as an intermediate crafter (I guess I fit in there) I would need to learn more techniques and being able to offer more custom products to be able to make a living out of leathercraft. With that said, I think just selling cheap to get their money back to be able to buy more leather can be a good thing, especially if someone is making larger items.

But when it comes to more "simple constructions" there are so many crafters out there so the competition is hard. I think it can be a good choice to try to focus on being really good at making a certain products, and not trying to make everything. For me the main goal is watch straps, everything from flat straps, to padded straps, to straps with special inserts for watches with unique lug fittings. But it will take time, because even though it might look simple (which I thought in the beginning) making for example a durable but soft padded strap isn't super easy. And I want to make really high quality constructed straps, so I spend a lot of time trying different materials and construction techniques. But slowly I get better and better.

And watch straps are a very good example of a product that doesn't require a lot of expensive tools. Sure you can buy expensive tools for quick release spring bars, you can buy electric creasers, expensive hole punches, but even with relatively cheap tools it's possible to make nice straps with practice. And the cost of leather is low.

[Spyros]

5 hours ago, Klara said:

Why this obsession with rivets? I much prefer sewing... 

As for making money - I believe people should learn a craft first, properly, and then think about selling their product. Besides, in my experience selling isn't all that easy...

 

No idea, when I do develop an obsession with rivets I'll let you know.

[chuck123wapati]

interesting conversation about a process that dates back thousands of years and was being accomplished successfully before iron was invented. Sometimes i wonder how we will ever evolve further.

 Was given a very good book about the process of making footwear and clothing called "Our Boots" an Inuit woman's art. Its a wonderful book that shows above all else the real genius of people, which is the ability to make do and adapt what is at hand.  You people know that the intuits made all of their clothing keeping them alive in the worst environment on earth without modern tools. Yea not even a ruler! 

[Spyros]

So what is the Inuit or fine leatherworking acceptable solution when you're putting straps on your bicycle bag to hang under your saddle, and you know those straps will be the first thing that will get ******* and I will have to replace them sooner or later?

My solution was chicago screws, what was I meant to do?

Edited October 15, 2021 by Spyros

[billybopp]

26 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

interesting conversation about a process that dates back thousands of years and was being accomplished successfully before iron was invented. Sometimes i wonder how we will ever evolve further.

 Was given a very good book about the process of making footwear and clothing called "Our Boots" an Inuit woman's art. Its a wonderful book that shows above all else the real genius of people, which is the ability to make do and adapt what is at hand.  You people know that the intuits made all of their clothing keeping them alive in the worst environment on earth without modern tools. Yea not even a ruler! 

I was talking with an anthropology professor some years ago, and she told me that they had somehow discovered that throat skin from a seal is much like modern goretex - It is breathable, and passes water in one direction only.   Ingenious!

- Bill

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

So what is the Inuit or fine leatherworking acceptable solution 

I don't know the Inuit made kayaks, btw without modern tools also, not bicycles so they prolly didn't need them lol. But I imagine they would have sewn them on as they didn't have chicago screws.. its very easy to replace sewn on straps.

Edited October 15, 2021 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

58 minutes ago, billybopp said:

I was talking with an anthropology professor some years ago, and she told me that they had somehow discovered that throat skin from a seal is much like modern goretex - It is breathable, and passes water in one direction only.   Ingenious!

- Bill

if you can ever find the book i reference its amazing how they made their clothing to keep them warm in subzero weather. 

[Klara]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

So what is the Inuit or fine leatherworking acceptable solution when you're putting straps on your bicycle bag to hang under your saddle, and you know those straps will be the first thing that will get ******* and I will have to replace them sooner or later?

My solution was chicago screws, what was I meant to do?

I don't know what Inuits or Nigel Armitage would do, but all the straps on all my bicycle and  horse saddle bags are sewn. And if I ever needed to replace them, I could simply cut and remove the thread and sew on others. Which is one of the reason I don't like to buy things with rivets (the other is that I think rivets look cheap and mostly ugly and like somebody wanted to save time). That's the first thing.

The second thing is that Chicago screws just need a small hole that's on a standard revolving punch (or standard punch set) which many people (certainly horsepeople) have anyway. And a screwdriver for setting them, which I hope everybody has at home as well (Swiss army knive will do in a pinch). Btw. I hope you've used Locktite or similar...

[Spyros]

16 minutes ago, Klara said:

I don't know what Inuits or Nigel Armitage would do, but all the straps on all my bicycle and  horse saddle bags are sewn. And if I ever needed to replace them, I could simply cut and remove the thread and sew on others. Which is one of the reason I don't like to buy things with rivets (the other is that I think rivets look cheap and mostly ugly and like somebody wanted to save time). That's the first thing.

The second thing is that Chicago screws just need a small hole that's on a standard revolving punch (or standard punch set) which many people (certainly horsepeople) have anyway. And a screwdriver for setting them, which I hope everybody has at home as well (Swiss army knive will do in a pinch). Btw. I hope you've used Locktite or similar...

Yeah one of my use-for-everything plastic bottles I posted above is dedicated to loctite :D

Look I don't have any feelings for or against rivets.  I just make stuff for people.  And the way this usually goes is that they come to me with a couple of photos on their phones and they say I want something between this and that, but can we make this a little different or whatever.  And what they show me typically involves some sort of hardware, and even if I have some suggestions or a preference I don't want to impose it on people too much.  Based on what they're showing me most people seem to like a little bit of metal on their leather. 

And sometimes there's practical reasons.  Stitching wouldn't work on that particular strap on the saddlebag for example, I needed the strap to pivot as well, because I usually take it with me after I park the bike and the strap doubles as a bag handle. 

[Klara]

Granted, if you need to be set up to do whatever the customer wants, then you want a huge stock of hardware and tools.

I'm not planning on doing that - I just want to make nice, functional dog collars... (getting there for my own use, but they still take too much time and the result is too uncertain for selling)

 

[Spyros]

Not whatever they want, but some things they want are very commonly repeated.