Hermann Oak top-grain

[Piko]

So, was going to buy a panel of Hermann Oak leather and scrolled down to where it said that Hermann Oak has been tanning top-grain leather since 1881 or something like that. So I messaged the rep and asked if that piece was full grain or top grain and she said it is top grain. Now I am confused…is all Hermann Oak top grain or they sell it full grain and distributers sand it to top grain? 

[JLSleather]

These terms have been polluted and convoluted to the point where they mean virtually nothing.  "full" grain once meant the entire skin, as opposed to "top" grain, which seemed to denote a leveled hide - leveled by removing the BOTTOM section to end up with a consistent "top" piece (the underside was often modified to become suede leathers or "prints").

Hermann Oak Leathers (St Louis, MO) sells tooling leather "split" to the thickness you need.  The hair has been removed and the hide has been "tanned" (another term that has been through the wringer over the years).

EVERYBODY will rush to tell you that H.O. is THE best leather.  Just keep in mind that they sell GRADES of leather, and not all are equal in condition or cost.

That said, I DO recommend HO tooling leathers, but would add that if you're buying through a retailer you're going to pay a SIGNIFICANT markup, and if you're buying "panels" (or other small cuts) the markup will likely be WORSE.  While we would all LIKE TO BELIEVE and EXPECT to pay more for a "panel" or "piece" with defects removed (cut away)... that is NOT guaranteed.  There are those who will gladly cut a piece of "C" grade leather, complete with visible defects and "mushy" spots, and sell it to you at a PREMIUM price. Buyer beware ...

 

[Hags]

Ditto JLS.  To me, top grain is leather with a smooth, natural top/hair side and the split and sometimes sanded flesh side. I use HO exclusively for my work. I use one of 2 dealers because I know my b grade will be pretty much all usable. I like HO because I know how it is going to tool, mold, and finish. I use whichever one has the best deal at the time. One has a very good flat fate shipping and the other occasionally has free shipping. I do pay a bit more for HO, but I feel it's worth it. You will still have to work around zome problem spots, but I find them pretty minor. I also am trusting my supplier to send quality leather. If I had a tandy or Springfield within 50 miles, I may do things differently being able to see and feel the product. But as always, caveat emptor. 

[Piko]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

These terms have been polluted and convoluted to the point where they mean virtually nothing.  "full" grain once meant the entire skin, as opposed to "top" grain, which seemed to denote a leveled hide - leveled by removing the BOTTOM section to end up with a consistent "top" piece (the underside was often modified to become suede leathers or "prints").

Hermann Oak Leathers (St Louis, MO) sells tooling leather "split" to the thickness you need.  The hair has been removed and the hide has been "tanned" (another term that has been through the wringer over the years).

EVERYBODY will rush to tell you that H.O. is THE best leather.  Just keep in mind that they sell GRADES of leather, and not all are equal in condition or cost.

That said, I DO recommend HO tooling leathers, but would add that if you're buying through a retailer you're going to pay a SIGNIFICANT markup, and if you're buying "panels" (or other small cuts) the markup will likely be WORSE.  While we would all LIKE TO BELIEVE and EXPECT to pay more for a "panel" or "piece" with defects removed (cut away)... that is NOT guaranteed.  There are those who will gladly cut a piece of "C" grade leather, complete with visible defects and "mushy" spots, and sell it to you at a PREMIUM price. Buyer beware ...

 

Thank you JLS.

so, if I am understanding this well, HO’s leather is full grain. I buy panels because my living situation doesn't really allow me to get larger pieces and have no space to cut them. While they are expensive I find them cheaper than the leather I get from amazon (mind you, I just started working with leather). I guess I’ll buy a couple of panels and try it out. Springfield Leather has some for relatively cheap. They classify the leather as #1 or #2 with the former being the best quality so, I assume A but, it could also mean that it is the best quality cut if a grade C. I don’t know and doubt I’ll be able to tell until I get some good leather and compare.. 

You mentioned the markup through a retailer. Can I buy from the Hermann company itself?

 

 

1 hour ago, Hags said:

Ditto JLS.  To me, top grain is leather with a smooth, natural top/hair side and the split and sometimes sanded flesh side. I use HO exclusively for my work. I use one of 2 dealers because I know my b grade will be pretty much all usable. I like HO because I know how it is going to tool, mold, and finish. I use whichever one has the best deal at the time. One has a very good flat fate shipping and the other occasionally has free shipping. I do pay a bit more for HO, but I feel it's worth it. You will still have to work around zome problem spots, but I find them pretty minor. I also am trusting my supplier to send quality leather. If I had a tandy or Springfield within 50 miles, I may do things differently being able to see and feel the product. But as always, caveat emptor. 

Thank you Hags. What dealer do you use? I don’t know many. Namely, one. 

[Tugadude]

Hermann Oak has a website packed with lots of useful information about their products.  They also have folks you can call or email that will give you specific answers.  They also have some videos of their production which may help.

http://www.hermannoakleather.com/

This is their process and is on their website:  When you think about cost, just look at the number of steps it takes to provide a high quality leather.

TANNING PROCESS

 

 

[JLSleather]

15 hours ago, Piko said:

I don’t know and doubt I’ll be able to tell until I get some good leather and compare.. 

What weight is that?  PM me an address and I'll send you a piece of what its' SUPPOSED TO look like... pretty sure i have some 3/4 oz and some 4/5... not sure i have any 2/3 left around here.

[Piko]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:54 PM, Tugadude said:

Hermann Oak has a website packed with lots of useful information about their products.  They also have folks you can call or email that will give you specific answers.  They also have some videos of their production which may help.

http://www.hermannoakleather.com/

This is their process and is on their website:  When you think about cost, just look at the number of steps it takes to provide a high quality leather.

TANNING PROCESS

 

 

Thank you for the info!

[Piko]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:30 AM, JLSleather said:

What weight is that?  PM me an address and I'll send you a piece of what its' SUPPOSED TO look like... pretty sure i have some 3/4 oz and some 4/5... not sure i have any 2/3 left around here.

I truly appreciate your gesture, but I ended up just buying leather from Rocky Mountain, some pueblo and other stuff so I didn’t get the HO yet.

but thanks again for offering. Much appreciated. I am gonna try to use this pueblo today.

[Spyros]

I thought "top grain" means that a very thin layer from the top has been removed, just to get rid of some surface scratches.  I also find that a lot of those standard terms vary a little from tannery to tannery and merchant to merchant.  I've had a lot of confusion in the past trying to distinguish between a "bend", "back", "culatta", "double back", "double bend" etc, different merchants seem to mean different things with those terms.  Just have to ask them specifically. 

On 12/7/2021 at 5:53 AM, JLSleather said:

That said, I DO recommend HO tooling leathers, but would add that if you're buying through a retailer you're going to pay a SIGNIFICANT markup, and if you're buying "panels" (or other small cuts) the markup will likely be WORSE.  While we would all LIKE TO BELIEVE and EXPECT to pay more for a "panel" or "piece" with defects removed (cut away)... that is NOT guaranteed.  There are those who will gladly cut a piece of "C" grade leather, complete with visible defects and "mushy" spots, and sell it to you at a PREMIUM price. Buyer beware ...

I mean the retailer has to make a margin to stay in business.  How much is the significant mark up, and is buying directly from HO even an option for small quantities?

[JLSleather]

Keeping the retailer above water IS NOT your responsibility.  I get SO tired of retailers running brick 'n' mortar stores who think that I should find it reasonable to pay 20, 30, 40 percent more for something so that THEY can justify their existence.  I do not.  If you give me a better deal, I'll shop with you.  Better deal might be better product, or same product at better price, or same product and same price but quicker delivery, for example.  If you want 25% more, TELL ME WHY I should pay it.

Haven't asked in a while, but for a long time H.O. had a minimum order of 10 sides.  This is not a large amount of leather.  I thought ordering 10 or 15 sides would be a good bit until I talked to people buying 50 at a time.  GREAT leather is just over $8 per foot.  Sadly, most of the 'retailers' are selling LOWER GRADE leather (though they don't often admit it) and marking up 50% AND MORE.  At $12 per foot, it should come with the beef STILL IN IT.

I have suggested FOR YEARS that if you use small pieces or if you only get to do leather on weekends, for instance, that you get 2 or 3 others who do the same and POOL your money.  Got other leather crafters within 50 miles or so?  SPLIT an order of 10 sides with another guy, or two, or three.  I buy BACKS (belly removed).. usually run about $180 each after shipping for the best grade.  An order of 10 for $1800-ish.  SO if you got a couple other guys buy a couple sides each, maybe easier to swallow.

Sadly, not too many interested in that around these parts.  A few years ago I was moving, and offered to sell some backs AT COST.  Just saves a little room on the truck.. didn't really matter.  Wasn't going to take a loss on it, but thought it would be a good chance for some who were interested to see what the GOOD stuff is supposed to look and feel like.  I think ONE person wanted ONE piece (or maybe it was 2?). 

Another option ... Wickett-Craig sells leather by the side (or back, or bend). They will sell individual sides, in natural or pre-dyed colors (yes, the dyed leather can be stamped/tooled).  I've used a good bit of W/C leather, the vast majority of it quite good.  If you're TOOLING leather, it is DIFFERENT but not better or worse... a bit different feel, but tools very well and retains its shape when formed.

 There are "genuine" leather, "bonded" leather, "corrected grain" leather, ... blahblah.... it goes on forever.  It's confusing because it's MEANT TO BE confusing.