What sewing machine to buy exclusively for soft and thin Lamb nappa leather jackets sewing?

[ClaudioBravo]

Dear friends,

I'm working with textile, making ladies evening dresses for more than 10 years. Also men's business shirts in the last few months. So I have some experience in sewing, cutting...

I would like to start manufacturing expensive, high-end fashion jackets from fine and delicate leather, like a lamb (sheep) napa leather. I'm not interested at all in calfskin or any other hard leather, like those used in bike jackets because those can be bought very cheaply in my market!

Could you please give me your opinion, what type of sewing machine I would need for that kind of soft and thin leather? Mostly 0.6-0.7mm is the thickness of the leather I will use.

The attached photos are from the jacket I will clone for the beginning. That is a high fashion brand jacket which I like very much and would like to use that as a milestone for me, to have some quality standard, a target how my product should look!

In the attached photos, you could easily see a black thread. Could you please tell me what kind is that thread and what is the thickness of the thread used in this jacket is? Leather is Lamb Nappa as I wrote in the beginning.

Thank you very much for all the useful answers!

 

[Wizcrafts]

Lambskin leather, or Plonge, is soft density leather that has fairly sticky top grain that will have a lot of presser foot drag on a bottom feed only machine. I used to make ladies vests with Plonge and learned it is best to use a walking foot machine or a roller foot machine to feed it properly. There are two types of walking foot machine that can be used to sew this soft leather. One is a top and bottom dual feed machine and the other is a triple feed machine. Either is preferable to a roller foot machine unless the roller is gear driven (most aren't). I tried converting a straight stitch machine into a roller foot and it worked fine until the roller met a sudden higher layer. Then it sat there and punched the thread into the same hole until I lifted the roller foot with the knee lever. Walking foot machines just walk up onto higher layers, then walk down onto lower layers.

Garment leather doesn't usually hold marks from presser feet or feed dog teeth. So, you could get by with a dual feed walking foot machine that has teeth on the feet. This has the most positive feed for slippery materials, but will make deep marks on vegetable tanned (carving) leathers. The leather in your pictures is already textured, so you could get away with teeth on the feet.

You asked about the type of thread to use in leather vests. I use and recommend bonded nylon thread. It is very strong and lays tight against the top and bottom. For thin leather use #69, which has 11 pounds breaking strength. For thicker layers use either #92 or #138 bonded thread. The needles for these threads are #18 for #69 thread, #19 or 20 for #92 thread, or #22 for #138 thread. You should use leather point needles, not round points. There are several shapes for leather points. If you want the stitches to lay straight, use D/Tri point, or Diamond point needles. The stitches will be bold on top with these needles. If you want offset stitches, buy LR twist needles. Other shapes include LL and S points.

 

[DrmCa]

Pfaff 335.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

Pfaff 335.

Beware the Pfaff 335 machines. Some of them are specifically built for use as edge binders and will not function the same on broad stitching as a normal walking foot machine. There have been numerous topics posted here by unsuspecting buyers of Pfaff 335 machines and their clones who couldn't use them for normal sewing operations without spending a significant amount of money on conversion parts. Also, a cylinder arm will fight you as you try to sew large flat areas, like the back and front panels. The place where a cylinder arm would be proper is for sewing armholes and attaching sleeves and cuffs.

Note, some dealers sell table attachments for particular cylinder arm machines. While they are good for small pieces of flat work, they aren't very good at supporting large pieces, like jacket and vest backs. But, the reality of the situation is that making vests and jackets often requires more than one type of sewing machine. I do repairs and modifications to leather jackets and vests and often use both cylinder arm and (long body) flat bed walking foot machines to complete a job.

If there is an industrial sewing machine dealer within driving distance, go there and bring a sample of the work you want to do. They can advise you about the best machines to accomplish the tasks. You will probably see machines made by Juki, Pfaff and Adler. If the Pfaff 335 comes up, ask if it is a binder or standard sewing machine. Don't buy a binder machine unless you know you will be sewing edge binding onto the edges!

If there is a jacket maker nearby and they allow guests to see the sewing shop, take a tour. You will learn a lot by watching the little old ladies with babushkas gather cut pieces of leather and cloth from the cutting room/clicker press to the sewing area where they send them from machine to machine to sew them into a finished product. It is mind boggling to watch and hear. Walking foot machines and clicker presses going tapockita tapockita tapockita!

[Wyowally]

If you're not familiar with our forum, you should know that you just heard from the recognized authority here for such things - Mr. Wizcrafts! No need to look further or wait for additional answers, IMHO.

[ljk]

I did notice on the second video that as the stitching came off the double seam the stitch got shorter. This happens using a drop feed or walking foot machine. A compound feed machine usually won't do that.  Many of those machines also have adjustment to alter the lifting height.  For example we sew embroidery twill to backing and need triple feed to keep materials aligned. By simply adjusting the lift we can sew heavy leather.  If you buy singer 111 or Oriental feet you will have a huge selection. If you buy Adler or Pfaff feet for those machine the prices are much higher, I am only speaking for the USA. You can buy knurled,smooth and teeth feet for the 111 style.  I don't know your market but if you see something just ask for a opinion from our members.

 

[ClaudioBravo]

Guys, thank you very much for your answers and opinions.

In my workshop, in my Lock Stich machines range, right now, i have:

Juki DDL-9000B-SS  

https://www.industrialsewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/under-bed-trimmer/juki-ddl-9000b-ss-direct-drive-ubt-

and 

Jack A5E

https://www.industrialsewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/lock-stitch/jack-a5e-direct-drive-lockstitch-industrial-sewing-machine

I could easily buy:

H5 walking foot:

https://www.industrialsewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/direct-drive/jack-h5-automatic-walking-foot-industrial-sewing-machine?search=H5

A6F needle feed:

https://www.industrialsewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/direct-drive/jack-a6f-direct-drive-needle-feed-industrial-sewing-machine?search=A6F

Jack 2060GHC Automatic Walking Foot Needle Feed

https://www.industrialsewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/needle-feed/jack-2060ghc-automatic-walking-foot-needle-feed-large-arm

Also, i have offer for very low used Juki 2810-7, exactly as in this video, but i'm in doubt is it overkill, to rough for fine leather jackets:

Pfaff machines are only clones in my country. Also, cylindrical, i thought about flat bed first, especially for long seams, zippers etc, i need machine for stitching long pieces of leather.

Needles, i can buy Groz-Beckert here. I would try with LR, SD, S, R points.

Threads, i could buy this:

https://industry.guetermann.com/en/products/product-finder/mara-80
https://industry.guetermann.com/en/products/product-finder/mara-70
https://industry.guetermann.com/en/products/product-finder/mara-50

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by ClaudioBravo

[ClaudioBravo]

Samples of my test stitches, on my Juki 9000B and Jack A5e machines, with just ordinary needles and threads. Those are just simple tests, nothing else, to try leather stock I bought for a beginning. Also ordinary iron foot for textile.

I have both top grain lamb nappa leather and Plongé lamb leather. First is leather with original grain and Plongé is corrected grain, for consistent finish across hides.

[Wizcrafts]

Can you get a hold of a Juki DNU-1541 to try out? It may be suitable if the pressures and tensions are reduced. Alexander compares them in this video...

 

[Wizcrafts]

Here is a video of a Juki DNU-1541 sewing a variety of materials.

 

[ClaudioBravo]

Quote

 

"Can you get a hold of a Juki DNU-1541 to try out? It may be suitable if the pressures and tensions are reduced. Alexander compares them in this video..."

 

 

Hey Wizcrafts, thank you very much for your efforts.

Yes, i can try DNU 1541, but only a new one.

And in my county, a new 1541 is expensive than slightly used (no any trace of use) Juki 2810-7.
Also, i don't want any belt drive machine in my workshop. Only direct drive machined are accepted. Simply, i want a new technology. And i like Chinese Jack brand very much, because they give you all the features and all the automation without pneumatics, for a very reasonable price!
And both 1541 and 2810-7 use same needle system...
 

[chrisash]

Just a note of caution, Hi-tech gives you all the bells and whistles you will ever need and can save time in production runs, but also comes with drawbacks in that Jacks (at least in the UK) models are seemingly often changed for something slightly different and that could mean problems say 3-5 years down the line when repairs of the electronics can be very difficult

Sometimes simpler can be far more long time buys, a electronic reverse button can save minutes in a factory but offers little over the mechanical lever to someone not in a rush to get the maximum out of the machine. and can be far more reliable like other gismo's

[DrmCa]

What are you planning to do for sleeves if you only buy a flatbed machine?

You are familiar with sewing textiles. Now you are entering leather market. It is different. The speeds are slower, stitches are longer, and each stitch placement matters. High-speed textile machines won't do it for you.

If you are fine with having to have your machines repaired when electronics or pneumatics gives in, of course you can buy computerized machines. But IMO for leather a used conventional Pfaff-335 with a flatbed attachment will take you miles ahead both in terms of initial cost and running costs.

I have no interest in talking you into that particular model, but a slower cylinder-arm machine is more flexible for making leather garments than any of the above computerized flat-bed machines.

[ClaudioBravo]

7 hours ago, chrisash said:

Just a note of caution, Hi-tech gives you all the bells and whistles you will ever need and can save time in production runs, but also comes with drawbacks in that Jacks (at least in the UK) models are seemingly often changed for something slightly different and that could mean problems say 3-5 years down the line when repairs of the electronics can be very difficult

Sometimes simpler can be far more long time buys, a electronic reverse button can save minutes in a factory but offers little over the mechanical lever to someone not in a rush to get the maximum out of the machine. and can be far more reliable like other gismo's

Thanks for your comment!

Yes, I got your point. I gave a fortune some 17 years ago when I bought my first Juki machines. Everyone cost a small fortune but worked like a charm.

Nowadays, if you are sewing in a Western country or Europe, you are making some luxury stuff, or you can't survive. I will never compete with Zara, New Yorker, Stradivarius, simply because my garments are 10x better sewed, from better materials, every stitch is in its place, all my zippers are YKK or RiRi... All models are greatly fitted and mostly targeted to girls with great body shape. I'm not politically correct. Couldn't care less for "curves"!   I don't have plus sizes, only standard, "model" sizes! I want customers who could afford to pay more!

90% of my evening dresses are between 120 and 230€ per model (130-250$)... 10% are hand made with lace and rhinestones etc... those are 600+€ and those prices are at the upper end in Eastern Europe!
So, I could easily afford a new machine from an 800-1000 €/$ price range! I always have a few new machines on the floor, so when somebody has some problem, they simply exchange the machine for a new one and continue to work. Later I check the machine to see what is the problem.

So far, Jacks are GREAT machines. A long time ago, nobody liked Samsung and LG.. nowadays, they are standard... But wait a few years... I have TCL tv in my house. It is really exceptional, not great. Tomorrow, TCL would be like Samsung today.
Also, DJI drones and gimbals... A few years ago, who would tell that some Chinese company like DJI would rule the world with their drones and hand stabilisers/gimbals!

If you ask me, Jack is the new DJI! They are here to stay. Jack overlock C4 and C5 was 5 years miles ahead of Juki. Now they have C6 which is even better in every way... Juki release a new overlock to match those from Jack a few weeks before. Guess what... As I have Jack C4 mostly, I recognize a lot of parts from C4 series in a new Jukis... so, it is not a secret that Jack actually makes those for Juki! Also tone of other machines... 

Also, every change at Jack is a kind of innovation. They are removing electromagnet in new lockstitch machines and use servo motor for moving Presser Foot up and down! Both Jukis and Adler are still manual, or if you pay a price of a new city car for non-Eco version, you could get pneumatic! Not to mention a belt transport! Jack doesn't only have a DC direct drive, they have the latest form of DC engine, with high tech inverter drive!

So.. when some of my Jack machines finally dies, I would simply buy a new one, sell a broken one for half-price or simply keep it for parts

I have plans to sell my leather jacket for 500+€/600$. (high price for my market) I have plans to make a dream jacket, with best leather, real fur collar, Riri zippers and an overall great fit. Will use software and CNC cutter to cut bespoke. You enter customers measurements, software correct pattern and cutter cut leather to a client measure... if I can't sell at the high price point, I would not go into that... so I need really ultimate sewing solution.

[ClaudioBravo]

3 hours ago, DrmCa said:

What are you planning to do for sleeves if you only buy a flatbed machine?

You are familiar with sewing textiles. Now you are entering leather market. It is different. The speeds are slower, stitches are longer, and each stitch placement matters. High-speed textile machines won't do it for you.

If you are fine with having to have your machines repaired when electronics or pneumatics gives in, of course you can buy computerized machines. But IMO for leather a used conventional Pfaff-335 with a flatbed attachment will take you miles ahead both in terms of initial cost and running costs.

I have no interest in talking you into that particular model, but a slower cylinder-arm machine is more flexible for making leather garments than any of the above computerized flat-bed machines.

Thanks for your effort really. First, there is no Pfaff anymore. It is Shang Gong now and all machines, except the most expensive ones, are either made in China or in Minerva factory in the Czech Republic, like Durkopp Adler! Also, 335 are outdated construction. And here, I can't buy a new Pfaff 335 anymore. I can buy made in china clones and used one I can't find or they are in very bad condition. Clones are around 2000 euros (~2400$) here and I could buy all manual Durkopp Adler 669 Eco for 3300 euros (~3600$)

But for the leather jacket you need a lot of space and a big flat surface to not damage the leather.. so... that is the main reason I would like a flatbed first.

I have plans to maybe enter into fine leather purses segment, to clone Hermes purses range but right now, it is hard to find skilled workers. But if I succeed, I will buy 669 for sure or something like this:

https://konsew.com/industrial-sewing-machine/jack-industrial-machine/jack-s7-intelligent-control-computerized-post-bed-roller-feed-sewing-machine

if Jack goes out with a cylindrical machine, like this post bed one!

[DrmCa]

Adler is timing belt driven. Timing belts break, and when they do it sucks.

[ClaudioBravo]

Hey, yes, I just browse a Part Book for Adler 669 and really never thought that it use belts instead of solid shaft. Both Pfaff 335 and Jack H5 and 2060G have Shaft, but Jack 6691/2 is a machine that also uses a timing belt.

Whether it is due to thermal expansion of the shaft during long time operation or maybe it is incorrect or insufficient space for a classic shaft, I do not know, but Durkopp Adler is an industry-standard and all possible factories that make car interiors and seats for luxury vehicles like Mercedes, BMW, Rolce Royce.. etc. use these machines daily.
There is nothing better than that in the world, so I believe that this belt drive is the least of your worries.

And here I just remembered to look at the new Delta machines that cost 10k + and they also have a belt.

[Constabulary]

IMO timing belts are not really an issue, modern timing belts are quite long lasting. Old aged not well kept machines stored away in unfavorable conditions  (dust, oil, heat, cold, moist, maybe sun or a combination of one or more) usually have problems with timing belts. Adler and Pfaff used some sort of brownish timing belts for a while (in the period when 67 or 167 and the like where en vogue) but they have learned and no longer so.  So the issues with timing belts you read about are usually found on machines that have been stored away for many years or decades in unfavorable conditions. I would not worry about that when you buy a new machine.

[kgg]

On 1/13/2022 at 5:03 PM, ClaudioBravo said:

First, there is no Pfaff anymore.

Yes, their are no more true PFAFF's, Dürkopp Adler's or Maschinen GmbH ( Mauser ). They have been all acquired by the Chinese company called SGSB GROUP CO. when the ShangGong Co., Ltd. merged with Shanghai SMPIC Co., Ltd. back in 2005. They acquired PFAFF in 2005 and in 2013 acquired Dürkopp Adler and Maschinen GmbH ( Mauser ). The question for me is are those old respected brand names now just overpriced China clone's with an acquired brand name badge?????

kgg

[Constabulary]

I don´t know what they (still) produce in Bielefeld (Dürkopp-Adler) but the plant is still there. The new DA M-Type machines are build in the Czech republic by MInerva 

https://www.minerva-boskovice.com/

Edited January 16, 2022 by Constabulary

[ClaudioBravo]

Last year, I wanted to complement our line of evening dresses with women's bags-purses.

After a dozen You Tube videos from Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Chanel and Dior, it was clear to me that everyone uses cylindrical machines with compound drive for the bags and there was no dilemma what to buy.

I chose Durkopp Adler 669. One local dealer asked me for 3100€ + VAT and the other for 3300€ + VAT, but with a binder variant.
And then I discovered that for that money I only get the ECO variant, so pure mechanics.
For "electronics", in fact a pneumatic machine, they asked me twice, almost 6600 € + VAT

When I went to both companies and looked at a dozen new Durkopp Adler machines, I saw that they were all made in the Czech Republic. And honestly, I didn't like giving so much money for a product that is not "made in Germany" and which in 2021 will be powered by pneumatics (must have compressed air on site) instead with electromagnetic or servo motors!

Then I surveyed my customers and they mostly told me that they are not overly interested in unbranded bags and for now I have given up on that idea!

So I'm waiting for Jack to introduce a compound drive cylindrical machine to buy it, to have it just in case.

p.s.
Looking at Minerva and the Dutch Global website, I saw that the machines are made exactly the same design and look like Durkopp Adler, only under the name Minerva and Global and I would say they use a slightly different base color for the machine body, while everything else is the same ... I don't know where those machines are sold, but the M-type is definitely not a real Durkopp Adler!

[ClaudioBravo]

After a lot of trouble matching the thread size of the leather jacket, I would like to clone it, this is my best bet.

First my setup:

Lockstich Juki DDL9000B-SS,

Top thread polyester Generic 20/3  (#138) Tex 15
Bobin thread AMAN Serafil 30/3 (#92) Tex 90
Needle 18/110 with R point style, without cutting effect. I wasn't able  to find needle for my DP x 5 system with cutting point right now!

Lamb Nappa leather, brown is a really thin one and black is a little bit thicker.

[ClaudioBravo]

Samples, top and bottom.

Comparing my sample with 20/3 top thread to my favourite leather jacket, made by Milestone Jacket:

[ClaudioBravo]

Finally, a sample of a bit thicker leather.

[ClaudioBravo]

I would like to hear from you... what are you think??
I'm messing a lot to dial in a proper top and a bottom, bobbin tension! After a lot of trial and error, those are my best bet.

First, I'm not sure if I had proper cutting needle point, maybe my stitch would be "deeper"... also, I can't have enough bobbin tension with my light and medium Lockstitch Juki DDLS 9000B-SS bobbin.

So I guess I will definitely have to buy a new machine just for leather sewing??