Stitching

[Selvune]

Just now, MtlBiker said:

Top right corner of that website has a flag icon and the text next to it says to click there and select language.  There is no US flag so you'll have to pick the British one to get the Queen's English.  Works just fine.

thanks.  going to check now.

[MtlBiker]

I screwed up with a little practice project I'd been working on.  After practicing my stitching with scraps of 6oz veg tan, I *thought* I was ready to try a real project.  I wanted to stitch a sheath for one of my skiving knives.  I'd made a few before but used machine stitching.  So I had top and bottom layers of 6oz, plus a "spacer" (is there a better name for that?  I hesitate to call it a gusset) so that the skiver blade doesn't hit the stitching.  So effectively 3 layers of 6oz.

I glued it all together with contact cement and then punched my stitching holes with my Craftool 3mm (#88045-06) chisel.  That's where I had the first problem...  I almost couldn't get the chisel back out of the leather.  Yes, I'd punched all the way through... should I have only punched part way and then used an awl to get all the way through?  Anyway, by wiggling the chisel back and forth I eventuallly got it out, but the glued layers came apart on a section.  So when I tried to stitch this, the layers didn't align properly and I had a devil of a time until I finally gave up because I couldn't get the needles through when the holes didn't align.

I'll try again, and plan to skive the edges of the top and bottom layers a bit to thin it out (leaving the spacer middle layer intact) and then glue it again.  Not sure what to do with the chisel and awl.  Right now my awl doesn't seem to be sharp enough (working on it) to punch through even half the thickness without really bending the leather, thus probably causing the glue to separate again.  Anyway, I'm going to try, and again it's a good practice piece which doesn't waste too much leather.

 

[DJole]

8 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

I screwed up with a little practice project I'd been working on.  After practicing my stitching with scraps of 6oz veg tan, I *thought* I was ready to try a real project.  I wanted to stitch a sheath for one of my skiving knives.  I'd made a few before but used machine stitching.  So I had top and bottom layers of 6oz, plus a "spacer" (is there a better name for that?  I hesitate to call it a gusset) so that the skiver blade doesn't hit the stitching.  So effectively 3 layers of 6oz.

I glued it all together with contact cement and then punched my stitching holes with my Craftool 3mm (#88045-06) chisel.  That's where I had the first problem...  I almost couldn't get the chisel back out of the leather.  Yes, I'd punched all the way through... should I have only punched part way and then used an awl to get all the way through?  Anyway, by wiggling the chisel back and forth I eventuallly got it out, but the glued layers came apart on a section.  So when I tried to stitch this, the layers didn't align properly and I had a devil of a time until I finally gave up because I couldn't get the needles through when the holes didn't align.

I'll try again, and plan to skive the edges of the top and bottom layers a bit to thin it out (leaving the spacer middle layer intact) and then glue it again.  Not sure what to do with the chisel and awl.  Right now my awl doesn't seem to be sharp enough (working on it) to punch through even half the thickness without really bending the leather, thus probably causing the glue to separate again.  Anyway, I'm going to try, and again it's a good practice piece which doesn't waste too much leather.

 

I believe the term for your "spacer" is a "welt."

You are right, that's a LOT of layers to try to knock a stitching chisel through -- I found the same problem on one of my own projects. 

The pricking iron and awl technique is likely the traditional method, if you take the time to learn how to get the awl straight through all those layers.
But there are other ways using the stitching irons/chisels:
1) make holes in each layer separately. You need to make sure the stitching line is straight, of course. Make the holes in the top layer, then lay that down on the second layer, and using the chisel again, mark the holes on the second layer. Then take the first layer off and complete the holes in the second layer. You must be sure to keep consistent alignment of the chisel, or the holes will wander -- practice keeping it always at vertical! Look, check, and look again before pounding! 
Use the first layer again, and mark the third layer, and continue as above. Yes, it's tedious and fiddly, but it gets all the holes lined up.
2) Do the same as (1) above, but glue the 1st and 2nd layers (the welt) together, and make holes completely. Then mark 3rd layer and complete separately as above.  
3) I have heard of some who use the same chisels on the front side of layer 1, and the back side of layer 2. This causes the holes to cross in an X X X pattern, and might not be what you want. In a piece with more than 2 layers, I don't think it would work.
4) To avoid the "X" holes of (3), invest in a set of reverse chisels. The teeth of those are opposite in alignment, so they keep the / / / pattern. I have one set of Kevin Lee reverse chisels; here's how I use them. I make the holes on layer 1, then glue the next layer to it. Using a 2 prong chisel, I go back through the initial holes on layer 1, making a few holes at the start and end of each stitching line (and a few in the middle), all the way through so I can see the holes on the front of layer 2. Then I use the reverse irons, starting in the guide holes, to complete the stitching holes on layer 2. The prong spacing should match up, if you are careful. Drawback: you need to double your investment in stitching irons!

[chuck123wapati]

44 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

I screwed up with a little practice project I'd been working on.  After practicing my stitching with scraps of 6oz veg tan, I *thought* I was ready to try a real project.  I wanted to stitch a sheath for one of my skiving knives.  I'd made a few before but used machine stitching.  So I had top and bottom layers of 6oz, plus a "spacer" (is there a better name for that?  I hesitate to call it a gusset) so that the skiver blade doesn't hit the stitching.  So effectively 3 layers of 6oz.

I glued it all together with contact cement and then punched my stitching holes with my Craftool 3mm (#88045-06) chisel.  That's where I had the first problem...  I almost couldn't get the chisel back out of the leather.  Yes, I'd punched all the way through... should I have only punched part way and then used an awl to get all the way through?  Anyway, by wiggling the chisel back and forth I eventuallly got it out, but the glued layers came apart on a section.  So when I tried to stitch this, the layers didn't align properly and I had a devil of a time until I finally gave up because I couldn't get the needles through when the holes didn't align.

I'll try again, and plan to skive the edges of the top and bottom layers a bit to thin it out (leaving the spacer middle layer intact) and then glue it again.  Not sure what to do with the chisel and awl.  Right now my awl doesn't seem to be sharp enough (working on it) to punch through even half the thickness without really bending the leather, thus probably causing the glue to separate again.  Anyway, I'm going to try, and again it's a good practice piece which doesn't waste too much leather.

 

work on the very tip of your awl out to the widest part  it should slide through that, and your thumb, without much pressure at all. Plus some wax beeswax is best on your chisels will help with pulling them out. i used to chisel all the way through, still do sometimes but i also just chisel the first layer before glueing and use my awl to finish if its to thick of a project. I also just use an awl sometimes. Another method i use is to chisel the first layer, glue the welt on then chisel through that. Then lay the third layer in place and mark the top chisel hole take it apart and chisel the whole stitchj line on the third layer use some small brads or nails about  every inch to line up all the chiseled holes then glue the third layer down to the welt. I dont use this much anymore as its faster to just glue the third layer to the chiseled two layers and push through with the awl. Also get that cork the leather wont bend then makes it much easier!!

Edited February 28, 2022 by chuck123wapati

[zuludog]

OK, here are a few comments, and I hope that with these and looking at appropriate videos things will get better

The spacer between the font & back parts of a knife sheath, to protect the stitching, is called a WELT

The prongs on the Craftool chisel are a bit basic and angular; they can be improved considerably by polishing them. I also use Craftool chisels, this is how I do mine ..... Make a small file or 'polishing wand' by gluing fine abrasive/wet & dry paper to a lollipop stick or a thin strip of aluminium or stiff plastic, so that it's like a manicure board but thinner and tougher ...... carefully smooth & polish each face of each prong, and the points, rounding off the shoulder where the point meets the long part of the prong.

You will remove the black coating, but don't worry about that; in fact as you remove it and reveal the steel underneath you will probably see the grinding marks. There's no need to remove them completely to obtain a mirror finish unless you're really keen, but try to reduce them and the roughness as much as possible.......do it with 600 grit then 1,000 grit paper. This is a tedious sort of a job, but you only need to do it once, and it's well worth doing

When using the chisels, stroke the prongs on beeswax to lubricate them. Don't waggle them around to remove them, that will distort the leather and the stitching holes, and possibly bend the prongs; what you want is a straight vertical pull ...... hold down the leather with a small block of wood placed right up against the prongs then pull out the chisel

The prongs of a stitching chisel are about 7mm long. For layers that are thicker than that I glue all the layers together then make the holes as far as possible with the chisel, than complete them with an awl. Since you will be using an awl anyway, there's no need to really hammer the chisel in as far as possible, just go up to the base of the prongs so you don't damage the leather underneath. This method is very similar to the traditional method using a pricking iron & awl.

If you use the chisel & awl you should make a stitching line with dividers on each side of the leather, then concentrate to get the awl coming through neatly on the line; you soon get used to it.

Just one point(!) about the Craftool chisels; the size of most stitching chisels is measured between the points of the prongs, but for Craftool the distance is measured between the sides of the prongs, which means that the distance between the points will be bigger by about 1,25mm. For example, My 4mm Craftool chisels are about 5,5 mm between the points. 

You should be able to push a diamond awl through the leather with hardly any effort or distorting the leather. There are several YT videos about sharpening an awl, those by Nigel Armitage, JH Leather, and Leathertoolz are good, but the more you watch the better the chance of picking up a technique that suits you. Briefly, here's how I do it -

I start with a very fine oilstone, either on the edge of your desk or raised on a block of wood so you can easily get your fingers around & under the awl handle. Move the awl back & forth and rotate your hand so you polish all the faces of the awl. You can round off the flatter points of the diamond slightly, but the edges should be thin & sharp without being absolutely razor sharp. Keep the blade flat to polish along its length.

The tip of an awl should not be absolutely needle sharp & pointed; it should be more like a very small rounded chisel, so raise the handle slightly to shape and sharpen the tip. Use the stone to get the shape right; the next stages are for polishing & sharpening. Besides moving the awl blade in & out, you can sharpen the tip by rotating the tip in a sort of an elliptical movement - watch the videos

I don't   know the grade of my oilstone but to be sure I follow it with wet & dry paper, say 1000, 2,000, then 5,000 grit. Place the paper over a block of woof, add a drop of water, then polish as for the stone. It should be sharp & shiny by the time you've done that

Then use a strop; same sort of thing, but right at the end lift the handle slightly, and only pull back & lift, to sharpen the tip - rather like sharpening any knife, but on a much smaller scale

That should be OK if you use a clamp. If you still have trouble, be patient and keep on trying....or I've seen some videos, especially of Japanese leatherworkers, where they lay the work on a sheet of cork and press down with the awl

By chance, soon after I started with leatherwork I got talking to a retired traditional cobbler - in a pub, where else? I asked him just how sharp should an awl be?  He replied 'Ahhhhh....so it goes about 'alfway through yer finger before yer notices'. 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by zuludog

[zuludog]

MTLBIKER - I wonder, what awl are you using?

The Tandy Craftool 4 - in - 1 awl 3209 isn't very good ( that's the polite version!). You're better off dumping it and using a fixed blade awl like the Craftool Stitching Awl 31218 or the TandyPro Awl 86001 - 0026..... or perhaps someone can suggest other alternatives?

Edited February 28, 2022 by zuludog

[MtlBiker]

4 hours ago, DJole said:

I believe the term for your "spacer" is a "welt."

You are right, that's a LOT of layers to try to knock a stitching chisel through -- I found the same problem on one of my own projects. 

The pricking iron and awl technique is likely the traditional method, if you take the time to learn how to get the awl straight through all those layers.
But there are other ways using the stitching irons/chisels:
1) make holes in each layer separately. You need to make sure the stitching line is straight, of course. Make the holes in the top layer, then lay that down on the second layer, and using the chisel again, mark the holes on the second layer. Then take the first layer off and complete the holes in the second layer. You must be sure to keep consistent alignment of the chisel, or the holes will wander -- practice keeping it always at vertical! Look, check, and look again before pounding! 
Use the first layer again, and mark the third layer, and continue as above. Yes, it's tedious and fiddly, but it gets all the holes lined up.
2) Do the same as (1) above, but glue the 1st and 2nd layers (the welt) together, and make holes completely. Then mark 3rd layer and complete separately as above.  
3) I have heard of some who use the same chisels on the front side of layer 1, and the back side of layer 2. This causes the holes to cross in an X X X pattern, and might not be what you want. In a piece with more than 2 layers, I don't think it would work.
4) To avoid the "X" holes of (3), invest in a set of reverse chisels. The teeth of those are opposite in alignment, so they keep the / / / pattern. I have one set of Kevin Lee reverse chisels; here's how I use them. I make the holes on layer 1, then glue the next layer to it. Using a 2 prong chisel, I go back through the initial holes on layer 1, making a few holes at the start and end of each stitching line (and a few in the middle), all the way through so I can see the holes on the front of layer 2. Then I use the reverse irons, starting in the guide holes, to complete the stitching holes on layer 2. The prong spacing should match up, if you are careful. Drawback: you need to double your investment in stitching irons!

Great suggestions!  Thank you!  I like door #2.  And thanks for the term "welt".

For the time being I'm going to concentrate on sharpening my awl and once I'm happy with that, I'll try gluing the first layer to the welt and then punching the holes through with my awl after partial punching with the chisel. 

[MtlBiker]

4 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

work on the very tip of your awl out to the widest part  it should slide through that, and your thumb, without much pressure at all. Plus some wax beeswax is best on your chisels will help with pulling them out. i used to chisel all the way through, still do sometimes but i also just chisel the first layer before glueing and use my awl to finish if its to thick of a project. I also just use an awl sometimes. Another method i use is to chisel the first layer, glue the welt on then chisel through that. Then lay the third layer in place and mark the top chisel hole take it apart and chisel the whole stitchj line on the third layer use some small brads or nails about  every inch to line up all the chiseled holes then glue the third layer down to the welt. I dont use this much anymore as its faster to just glue the third layer to the chiseled two layers and push through with the awl. Also get that cork the leather wont bend then makes it much easier!!

Good stuff!  Thank you.  That's what I'm going to try, but first I've got to master getting my awl properly sharp.  And I've got some beeswax which I'll use on my chisel.  And it's probably going to be a lot easier to pull the chisel out of the leather if I'm not punching through 3 layers at a time.

I'm using a wine bottle cork for now.

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, zuludog said:

OK, here are a few comments, and I hope that with these and looking at appropriate videos things will get better

The spacer between the font & back parts of a knife sheath, to protect the stitching, is called a WELT

The prongs on the Craftool chisel are a bit basic and angular; they can be improved considerably by polishing them. I also use Craftool chisels, this is how I do mine ..... Make a small file or 'polishing wand' by gluing fine abrasive/wet & dry paper to a lollipop stick or a thin strip of aluminium or stiff plastic, so that it's like a manicure board but thinner and tougher ...... carefully smooth & polish each face of each prong, and the points, rounding off the shoulder where the point meets the long part of the prong.

You will remove the black coating, but don't worry about that; in fact as you remove it and reveal the steel underneath you will probably see the grinding marks. There's no need to remove them completely to obtain a mirror finish unless you're really keen, but try to reduce them and the roughness as much as possible.......do it with 600 grit then 1,000 grit paper. This is a tedious sort of a job, but you only need to do it once, and it's well worth doing

When using the chisels, stroke the prongs on beeswax to lubricate them. Don't waggle them around to remove them, that will distort the leather and the stitching holes, and possibly bend the prongs; what you want is a straight vertical pull ...... hold down the leather with a small block of wood placed right up against the prongs then pull out the chisel

The prongs of a stitching chisel are about 7mm long. For layers that are thicker than that I glue all the layers together then make the holes as far as possible with the chisel, than complete them with an awl. Since you will be using an awl anyway, there's no need to really hammer the chisel in as far as possible, just go up to the base of the prongs so you don't damage the leather underneath. This method is very similar to the traditional method using a pricking iron & awl.

If you use the chisel & awl you should make a stitching line with dividers on each side of the leather, then concentrate to get the awl coming through neatly on the line; you soon get used to it.

Just one point(!) about the Craftool chisels; the size of most stitching chisels is measured between the points of the prongs, but for Craftool the distance is measured between the sides of the prongs, which means that the distance between the points will be bigger by about 1,25mm. For example, My 4mm Craftool chisels are about 5,5 mm between the points. 

You should be able to push a diamond awl through the leather with hardly any effort or distorting the leather. There are several YT videos about sharpening an awl, those by Nigel Armitage, JH Leather, and Leathertoolz are good, but the more you watch the better the chance of picking up a technique that suits you. Briefly, here's how I do it -

I start with a very fine oilstone, either on the edge of your desk or raised on a block of wood so you can easily get your fingers around & under the awl handle. Move the awl back & forth and rotate your hand so you polish all the faces of the awl. You can round off the flatter points of the diamond slightly, but the edges should be thin & sharp without being absolutely razor sharp. Keep the blade flat to polish along its length.

The tip of an awl should not be absolutely needle sharp & pointed; it should be more like a very small rounded chisel, so raise the handle slightly to shape and sharpen the tip. Use the stone to get the shape right; the next stages are for polishing & sharpening. Besides moving the awl blade in & out, you can sharpen the tip by rotating the tip in a sort of an elliptical movement - watch the videos

I don't   know the grade of my oilstone but to be sure I follow it with wet & dry paper, say 1000, 2,000, then 5,000 grit. Place the paper over a block of woof, add a drop of water, then polish as for the stone. It should be sharp & shiny by the time you've done that

Then use a strop; same sort of thing, but right at the end lift the handle slightly, and only pull back & lift, to sharpen the tip - rather like sharpening any knife, but on a much smaller scale

That should be OK if you use a clamp. If you still have trouble, be patient and keep on trying....or I've seen some videos, especially of Japanese leatherworkers, where they lay the work on a sheet of cork and press down with the awl

By chance, soon after I started with leatherwork I got talking to a retired traditional cobbler - in a pub, where else? I asked him just how sharp should an awl be?  He replied 'Ahhhhh....so it goes about 'alfway through yer finger before yer notices'. 

 

That's really a most helpful reply from you!  Thank you! 

About the spacing on Craftool chisels... I see what you mean, but the Craftool Pro seems to be different.  The black Craftools are as you say and the ones I have are wider spacing than I'd expected.  In the Pro, the ones I have are the 3mm, and I've ordered the 3.5 which should arrive tomorrow.  The Pro's are much sharper, especially on the sides than the black regular ones.  And with beeswax, I'm sure it'll be easier to pull the chisel out.

I'll look for those videos about awl sharpening.  That's what I'm currently having trouble doing right.

If that old cobbler was in a pub... no wonder he said the awl goes halfway through your finger before you feel it!    But I get the "point".

Again, really great message.  Thank you.

 

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, zuludog said:

MTLBIKER - I wonder, what awl are you using?

The Tandy Craftool 4 - in - 1 awl 3209 isn't very good ( that's the polite version!). You're better off dumping it and using a fixed blade awl like the Craftool Stitching Awl 31218 or the TandyPro Awl 86001 - 0026..... or perhaps someone can suggest other alternatives?

The first haft I got was from Tandy and was this one. And I found the awls I got were terribly dull, even to my inexperienced eyes.  Then I made a mistake by buying the Osborne #141 haft which wouldn't let the Osborne awls fit.  I found out too late that this haft was for large needles or small awls.  So now I've got an Osborne #145 haft coming (arriving tomorrow) with some extra awls in case I mess up the sharpening.  I never considered buying one with permanent awl blade, thinking that the blade would be replaced fairly often.  But I guess I should have.