needle size ?

[hickok55]

this might be a stupid question but what size thread do i use for john james needles Size 17 (2/0).

[MtlBiker]

3 minutes ago, hickok55 said:

this might be a stupid question but what size thread do i use for john james needles Size 17 (2/0).

I think you'd use .8 thread.  I'm taking that from Rocky Mountain Leather.

I just got my 1/0 John James needles today, which are supposed to be the correct size for Ritza Tiger 1.0 thread.  The eye looks awfully small though and I'll have to see if I can thread it when I get home tonight.

 

[Tugadude]

5 minutes ago, hickok55 said:

this might be a stupid question but what size thread do i use for john james needles Size 17 (2/0).

Not a stupid question, but that's a pretty big needle.  What are you stitching?  I'd say the thread would need to be a minimum of 1.0mm and it could go much higher.

 

1.42mm is the listed diameter of the needle from the John James website.

 

https://www.jjneedles.com/images/downloads/JJ-Needles-Types-and-Sizes-Guide.pdf

[hickok55]

1 minute ago, MtlBiker said:

I think you'd use .8 thread.  I'm taking that from Rocky Mountain Leather.

I just got my 1/0 John James needles today, which are supposed to be the correct size for Ritza Tiger 1.0 thread.  The eye looks awfully small though and I'll have to see if I can thread it when I get home tonight.

 

that's what i thought

Just now, Tugadude said:

Not a stupid question, but that's a pretty big needle.  What are you stitching?  I'd say the thread would need to be a minimum of 1.0mm and it could go much higher.

 

1.42mm is the listed diameter of the needle from the John James website.

 

https://www.jjneedles.com/images/downloads/JJ-Needles-Types-and-Sizes-Guide.pdf

i'm stitching chaps

[MtlBiker]

4 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

Not a stupid question, but that's a pretty big needle.  What are you stitching?  I'd say the thread would need to be a minimum of 1.0mm and it could go much higher.

 

1.42mm is the listed diameter of the needle from the John James website.

 

https://www.jjneedles.com/images/downloads/JJ-Needles-Types-and-Sizes-Guide.pdf

Gosh this needle size thing is confusing!  It seems that size 2 is not the same as 2/0.  (And 1/0 is not the same as 1.)  Why the heck do they make it so hard to figure out?

Can you (or anyone here) tell me which JJ harness needle to use for Ritza Tiger 25 1.0 thread?  Is it #1 or #1/0?

And how does #000 harness needle (from Tandy) fit into the sizing scale?  Those were the only ones they had in stock when I ordered and they're much larger than the 1/0 I just received today.

 

[Tugadude]

36 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Gosh this needle size thing is confusing!  It seems that size 2 is not the same as 2/0.  (And 1/0 is not the same as 1.)  Why the heck do they make it so hard to figure out?

Can you (or anyone here) tell me which JJ harness needle to use for Ritza Tiger 25 1.0 thread?  Is it #1 or #1/0?

And how does #000 harness needle (from Tandy) fit into the sizing scale?  Those were the only ones they had in stock when I ordered and they're much larger than the 1/0 I just received today.

 

It is my understanding that John James needles are sometimes packaged differently, whether it is because of the country they are sold in or what, I'm not sure.  Best bet is to contact your supplier.  If you go to the link you can see how the listed needles compare size-wise.  When it comes to saddle stitching you don't want too large of needle because they can get hung up and require pliers to pull them through.  Once I figured out what's what I haven't had to do that gain.  I remember one member stating that they have to do it with each and every stitch.  If that's the case, something's wrong.

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, hickok55 said:

that's what i thought

i'm stitching chaps

Check out this video from Weaver.  Looks to me like they recommend 1.0mm thread with the #17 needle.  What I figured.

 

[MtlBiker]

28 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

It is my understanding that John James needles are sometimes packaged differently, whether it is because of the country they are sold in or what, I'm not sure.  Best bet is to contact your supplier.  If you go to the link you can see how the listed needles compare size-wise.  When it comes to saddle stitching you don't want too large of needle because they can get hung up and require pliers to pull them through.  Once I figured out what's what I haven't had to do that gain.  I remember one member stating that they have to do it with each and every stitch.  If that's the case, something's wrong.

It looks like you're correct (that the same needles are called different sizes depending on the market) but that sure makes it difficult for us newbies.  The John James proper website offers, 1, 2, 3, 4, 16 (3/0, 17 (2/0) and 18 (1/0) sizes.  Rocky Mountain says to use a "0 (1/0)" needle for Ritza 1.0 thread.  So I guess that means the size 18.  I did receive a package of JJ needles today from a Canadian source which are marked "1/0" and they look awfully small and I'd be surprised if I could thread the Ritza 1.0 in them.  My thread is at home and I'll try it tonight.

My order directly from John James in the UK will hopefully arrive tomorrow, and I've ordered a package of each of the 7 sizes they offer.  I guess the idea is to use the smallest needle that you can thread with any given thread... is that right?  And I know you're supposed to flatten the end of the thread to make it easier to thread the needle.

And then you get into Osborne harness needles, which seem to have size specified in a completely different way.  SIGH

And the only needle I've been able to try until now was a "000" (Large) size of unknown brand which was the only size in stock at Tandy when I ordered.  It's way larger than the 1/0 needles I got today.  No idea what thread that's designed for.

Thank you for your help and your patience with us newbies.

 

[Resurgam3191]

Cut the end of 1mm thread to a tapered point. Then it will thread easier through the 1/0 needle. My favorite combo for most holsters sheaths  and even wallets when I make them

[zuludog]

I, too, find the sizing system for needles is confusing, be they John James or any other make, but I have settled on  a few that cover the work I do -

For thin leather like wallets I use 0,35 to 0,45mm thread and John James Saddlers Harness needles item code L3912 size 004

For medium leather like pouches and small to medium knife sheaths I use 0,6mm thread and JJ L3912 needles size 002

For heavier leather like large knife sheaths and axe covers I use 0, 8 to 1,0mm thread and Tandy Stitching Needles item code 1195, sometimes called 'Tandy Big Eye Needles'.

These choices are not fixed, I can have a bit of variation. For example belts can be treated as medium or thick leather depending on the exact thickness of the leather and what I feel like at the time

I also reckon that there is a bit of variation between threads of different manufacturers even though they may be listed as the same - or to put it another way, I'm sure some 0,6mm thread is thicker than others......  

[MtlBiker]

Ok, I’m still confused about needle sizes, particularly John James harness needles.  Here are two packages of needles, one labeled 001 and the other 1/0.  This size naming system is crazy!

You can see that both needles are different sizes in length and as near as I can measure the one on the left is 0.98mm in diameter and the right one is 1.06mm.

i know I can thread the bigger needle with Ritza Tiger 25 1.0 thread but I haven’t tried yet with the other needle.  

Why is this so darn complicated?

[jrdunn]

9 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Ok, I’m still confused about needle sizes, particularly John James harness needles.  Here are two packages of needles, one labeled 001 and the other 1/0.  This size naming system is crazy!

You can see that both needles are different sizes in length and as near as I can measure the one on the left is 0.98mm in diameter and the right one is 1.06mm.

i know I can thread the bigger needle with Ritza Tiger 25 1.0 thread but I haven’t tried yet with the other needle.  

Why is this so darn complicated?

The 1/0 is the size larger than the 001(in JJ needles). I don't use Tiger thread specifically. I use Rhino. It seems less expensive but is similar. I can thread 1mm Rhino through the 001 if I wax it well. 1/0 is recommended for 1mm Tiger or Rhino(braided thread). I have trouble getting 1mm twist thread through a 2/0(next size up). I don't know but suspect that the sizing system came from wire gauge as it has a similar system.  JM2C.

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, jrdunn said:

The 1/0 is the size larger than the 001(in JJ needles).

Not clear on what you said... do you mean that 1/0 is the next size larger than 001, or just that it's larger?  Assuming (often dangerous to do) that of the seven sizes John James lists for their harness needles, the list would go from the smallest to the largest (or even vice-versa), 001 and 1/0 are completely at opposite ends of the range.

So far those are the only two sizes I have (my John James direct order for a pack of each size seems to have gotten lost in transit) and using Ritza Tiger 25 thread in 1.0 weight, I'm able to thread both those needles.  Which surprises me (as a novice).  I mean, if needles at each end of the size range work with 1.0 thread, it would seem they would work with the full range.  Unless as you might be implying by your comment, the 001 and 1/0 sizes are adjacent to each other in size.  Which makes this whole needle sizing thing even more confusing.  SIGH

 

[Klara]

You are completely right, the sizing system makes no sense whatsoever (nor does the John James website). I simply bought needles in each size, put them into a needle case (video with link to pattern here 

) so that two needles of each size are visible and I pick the pair that seems to go with the thread I want to use. And I generally pick the thread by colour (over the past year I've bought what made sense at the time) ... But you might find these guidelines helpful: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, Klara said:

You are completely right, the sizing system makes no sense whatsoever (nor does the John James website). I simply bought needles in each size, put them into a needle case (video with link to pattern here 

) so that two needles of each size are visible and I pick the pair that seems to go with the thread I want to use. And I generally pick the thread by colour (over the past year I've bought what made sense at the time) ... But you might find these guidelines helpful: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

Thanks very much, Klara.

And that needle case looks like a nice little project to practice stitching with.  I'll just have to modify it a bit because I ordered some of each of the 7 sizes John James offers.  Right now I'm working on trying to sharpen my awl and not yet doing a good job of it.  SIGH

 

[jrdunn]

23 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Not clear on what you said... do you mean that 1/0 is the next size larger than 001, or just that it's larger?  Assuming (often dangerous to do) that of the seven sizes John James lists for their harness needles, the list would go from the smallest to the largest (or even vice-versa), 001 and 1/0 are completely at opposite ends of the range.

Mtlbiker,  Yes, 1/0 is the very next size up from 001.  004 is the smallest and 3/0 is the largest listed there.  That is why I suspect it is based on a "wire size". 004-0(or 1/0) is gauge, meaning higher number=smaller wire.  The "0" is sometimes listed as 0, 00, 000 instead of 1/0, 2/0, 3/0.  I don;t know why, it just is.  Bear in mind this is my understanding of it, not an absolute proclamation of the truth.  I have received my order from JJ and the relative sizes bear this out.   Jim

[fredk]

I went through my stock of needles and measured their diameters with my digital callipers. Then I wrote their size on the packet. It'll do as long as I remember to to put the needles back in the correct packet - which I don't

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, jrdunn said:

Mtlbiker,  Yes, 1/0 is the very next size up from 001.  004 is the smallest and 3/0 is the largest listed there.  That is why I suspect it is based on a "wire size". 004-0(or 1/0) is gauge, meaning higher number=smaller wire.  The "0" is sometimes listed as 0, 00, 000 instead of 1/0, 2/0, 3/0.  I don;t know why, it just is.  Bear in mind this is my understanding of it, not an absolute proclamation of the truth.  I have received my order from JJ and the relative sizes bear this out.   Jim

Geez, this needle sizing thing just doesn't make sense!  Please take a look at the screen shot I posted above (2-3 messages back) taken from the John James UK website showing the sizes available.  If what you are saying in this message is true (and I don't doubt you) then if you were to put those sizes in order from the smallest needle to the largest, what would that look like?

004, 003, 002, 001, 1/0, 2/0, 3/0????  Why would any company list sizes of anything in an apparently random order?

And am I correct that it appears sizes 1, 2 and 3 are all IDENTICAL?

Edited February 27, 2022 by MtlBiker
Added question about identical

[Klara]

35 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

And am I correct that it appears sizes 1, 2 and 3 are all IDENTICAL?

It certainly looks like it on the JJ website, which is why I wrote that it doesn't make sense. Frankly, I believe it is a mistake by the person who wrote (or rather copied and pasted) the size guide. That said, at Decocuir they sell only 002 and 004 and then the x/0. Have a look - there is an English version (which I just can't see on a French system, so I can't link directly) - the page should answer some of your questions. 

[chuck123wapati]

20 hours ago, Klara said:

You are completely right, the sizing system makes no sense whatsoever (nor does the John James website). I simply bought needles in each size, put them into a needle case (video with link to pattern here 

) so that two needles of each size are visible and I pick the pair that seems to go with the thread I want to use. And I generally pick the thread by colour (over the past year I've bought what made sense at the time) ... But you might find these guidelines helpful: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

thats cool you could use the correct threads and spi for each needle division also as a way to remember. 

[Klara]

16 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

thats cool you could use the correct threads and spi for each needle division also as a way to remember. 

Now that's an absolutely brilliant idea! I think I need to make another one!

[NDphung]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:11 AM, MtlBiker said:

Geez, this needle sizing thing just doesn't make sense!  Please take a look at the screen shot I posted above (2-3 messages back) taken from the John James UK website showing the sizes available.  If what you are saying in this message is true (and I don't doubt you) then if you were to put those sizes in order from the smallest needle to the largest, what would that look like?

004, 003, 002, 001, 1/0, 2/0, 3/0????  Why would any company list sizes of anything in an apparently random order?

And am I correct that it appears sizes 1, 2 and 3 are all IDENTICAL?

Hi, I got my needle and some small Ritza thread from a place in BC, Canada (I am from Montreal and after doing my research, it's the cheapest place to get them since he uses good old Canada Post). I found the best explanation for the sizing is :

 

John James Saddlers Harness needles are supplied 25 loose needles per envelope.

John James Saddlers Harness needles size 1, 2 and 3 also known as 001, 002 and 003. These three sizes are all identical, they have the same diameter and the same length. This needle range is famous worldwide however the named size is determined by which county you live in. For the ease of ordering and to simplify the size range if you require size 1 or 3, please select size 2.

Sizes: 2 and 4 (also known as size 002 and 004) contains 25 needles per envelope

Size 16 (also known as size 3/0) contains 25 needles

Size 17 (also known as size 2/0) contains 25 needles

Size 18 (also known as size 1/0) contains 25 needles 

Size 1              55mm length x 1.02mm diameter
Size 2              55mm length x 1.02mm diameter
Size 3              55mm length x 1.02mm diameter
Size 4              48mm length x 0.86mm diameter
Size 16  (3/0)   62mm length x 1.63mm diameter
Size 17 (2/0)    60mm length x 1.42mm diameter
Size 18 (1/0)    57mm length x 1.09mm diameter

also the recommended size thread is:

Size 1/0 0.8-1.0 mm (1.09 needle dia)

Size 1,2 or 3 or (001,002,003) 08-0.6 mm (1.02 needle dia)

Size 4  or (004) 0.6 mm (0.86 mm needle dia). 

There is a picture of my needles to illustrate. (oops only let me use1.46mb)

 

 

 

[MtlBiker]

@NDphung - Nice to meet you.  I'm also in Montreal.

Where did you find the information that JJ needles size 1, 2 and 3 are identical?  I didn't see that on the JJ website nor on others that I've searched.  But I did see the specs which certainly seems to confirm that.

I got my John James harness needles directly from James in the UK.  I got a package of each of the 7 sizes, including exchange and shipping for less than the shipping cost alone from just about anywhere else.  Total cost in Canadian was $28.  All in.  Can't beat that.

Plus I got Ritza Tiger 25 thread in 1.0 size from Abby England, again for way way less than I could buy smaller quantities in North America.

Cheers!

 

[NDphung]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

@NDphung - Nice to meet you.  I'm also in Montreal.

Where did you find the information that JJ needles size 1, 2 and 3 are identical?  I didn't see that on the JJ website nor on others that I've searched.  But I did see the specs which certainly seems to confirm that.

I got my John James harness needles directly from James in the UK.  I got a package of each of the 7 sizes, including exchange and shipping for less than the shipping cost alone from just about anywhere else.  Total cost in Canadian was $28.  All in.  Can't beat that.

Plus I got Ritza Tiger 25 thread in 1.0 size from Abby England, again for way way less than I could buy smaller quantities in North America.

Cheers!

 

just google jj harness needle size   https://www.needles2pins.co.uk/needles/needles-for-leatherwork/john-james-saddlers-harness-leather-sewing-needles-2.html#:~:text=John James Saddlers Harness needles size 1%2C 2 and 3,which county you live in.. I only need small amount with many colours. I don't need  500m.  the JJ comes to 10 a package with 50 cents /package shipping I only need three size of needles to use 1, .8 , .6 thread. Tandy sell large spool of Ritza also 100m = 20$   500m or 100m  =67$

[Dwight]

You can make this stuff as hard on yourself as you want.   Or follow the KISS method . . . Keep It Simple Stupid.

For hand sewing . . . if it works . . . use it.

For machine sewing . . . best advice I ever got came from the Tippmann Boss people.  Thread the needle . . . hold your hands about 30 inches or 75 cm apart . . . with the needle in the middle of the string.  Lift one hand . . . drop the other . . . build a 45 degree string for the needle to slide on.

The needle . . . if properly sized . . . will easily slide down the string . . . switch positions with the hands . . . again the needle should slide easily.

Has worked for me for 20 years.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited March 1, 2022 by Dwight