mike59

I want to sincerely thank all of you who took the time and effort to respond to my post. I have learned a great deal from your comments and suggestions, and want to you to know that I am much obliged. Mike

Thank You Tim, Your thoughts are nice to hear.

Thanks for your input Bobby. As far as charging a customer for the pattern creation, on this 40hr. belt I feel that I am correct in charging for my time as it was a custom commission piece which the customer requested that it be his only. He gets the pattern, and it will not be duplicated on any other of my offerings. Therefore, I must charge for my time. As far as the quality of my work in comparison to yourself, or Peter Main, I don't feel that I am in this league. As a result I am faced with the assumption that my time is not as valuable as I had hoped and must decide whether to work cheaper, get faster without error, or end any commission work. The end result of that particular belt was that after the time spent, and following continued request to darken the center portion, which destroyed the detail, I wound up scrapping the belt, which was a sixty inch, 1 5/16 inch tapered to 1 1/2 on each end to accept his buckle set. The carving is 36 pin-oak leaves veined, undercut and lifted, with detail cuts, latigo lined and stitched. The truth of it is, I didn't really care much for the pattern anyway, but I'm not the customer. i have made a second belt for him, but don't know if it will suit him or not....we'll see. Thanks for you insight. Mike

Hi Billy, Your point is so true in the majority of cases. I can't and won't try to compete with that sort of pricing, nor that type of mentality; I can't! I was talking to a fella I know who makes belts for a local western tack store in the area, and he told me that he makes belts on order from the store's customers. He uses an embosser, no edging, no lining or stitching, and sells them for $16.00. The store gets 10% of that. I guess that's just the way it is, and I need to stop trying to compete in the belt making end of the business. Thanks for you input.

JLS, Everything you say is so true, and your points well taken. I suppose it will be up to me whether to continue offering these things, or buy an embosser and crank out ten per day, charge sixty bucks for them and be done with it. I do appreciate your response, and thank you for the kind evaluation. Mike

Much obliged Dustin.

Thanks for your input. I know that I'm slow as well, but I want it to be right. I do know that some of our competitors belts start at around $250.00 and go up from there, and my stuff is every bit as good as theirs. I know that doesn't mean much, but I just wanted a real world opinion on "realistic" pricing and expectations. If you are interested you can see some of my work at; www.mbarsranchgear.com or on my gallery here on LW. Thanks for your response, Mike

No need to appologize, Pete, I feel that I am spending too much time on these as well, however, I am including my pattern layout design on customers' request orders into that time as well. I can't compare to Peter Main's work, as I am afraid that I'm not well aquainted with his belts. I do understand that his work is acceptional, and do not claim to be in that class. I would ask about your post of April 30, 2010 concerning the time you spent on a layout design for a belt. I believe you stated that you spent 2 hours and not reached the second flower? I think this may be some of the labor time I am refering to. I would also ask that on a belt order, you stated that you would have it carved, finished, and out in three days. How many hours per day have you devoted to these belts? Part of my point is that I try, as do you, I'm sure, to make the best product for the customer that I possibly can, and for that effort, I expect to make a reasonable return on my investment of time, tools and shop costs. If you are interested in seeing some of my work, you can go to my website; www.mbarsranchgear.com or at some of the pictures in my gallery. I very much appreciate your response. Mike

I'm sure this may have been discussed before, but am also sure that many of the makers are confused about pricing their work. I will ask this of the high-end belt makers; What is a realistic price to ask for a custom made, hand carved belt? I find that with the pattern design, I normally will have about thirty-five to forty hours in high-end custom made belt. At fifteen dollars an hour, which is my shop rate, it's easy to have six-hundred dollars in a belt, just in labor. That's twice what anyone seems to be willing to pay. Am I taking too long, or charging too much? Any, and all comments will be appreciated.

Are you certain that your utilty knife blade is bending? If so, you are either applying way too much pressure down, or you need to buy a better knife, and, or better blades. It may be that when you are cutting around corners you are actually leaning your knife away from the leathers edge, afraid of cutting off of the scribed line. Most beginners do this. You have to keep the blade of whatever knife you use, at a 90 degree angle to the cutting surface all of the time. Practice and being cognizant of your cuttting angle will be the best teacher. Hope it helps.

I think this is without a doubt the most critical topic on the minds of most of us in the leatherworking community today. I honestly don't think we can reverse the import issue, which has affected nearly every American trade in this country. It seems that our elected officials, and our manufacturing giants, etc. have sold us out to cheap foreign labor, and inferior materials. I only hear how great my custom made products are, but the customers don't buy. And how can we fault them, when we are in the same boat they are and continue to support the Wal-Marts and others like them. I began making saddles and ranch gear commercially, not only because I love doing it, but out of necessity. One only has to look at the tools, conchos, and embellishments that we buy to build, and dress up our work to appeal to the pocketbooks of the average customer and know where they come from, to realize we are shooting ourselves in the foot. And we will continue to do so in order to earn a living, or for the hobbiest, hope to defray the cost of investment to achieve a break-even point from a supply standpoint. Forget the labor investment, cause there aren't too many of us that will ever see that investment turn into financial profit. Having vented all that, I do believe there is a market out there for our high-end products, making a presence there is another matter. It's somewhat frustrating when you make exceptionally well-made, functional, appealing products as so many of the makers who subscribe to this forum do, and find it difficult, if not impossible, to generate the funds necessary to invest in target market advertising, travel and booth fees at the locations where those potential customers will gather, searching for "the good stuff". I'm afraid that the treshhold will only continue broaden and heighten, unless we all stand and deliver. That means forcing change politicaly, and socially, by demanding tarriff reforms, tax levies on domestic companies that move manufacturing jobs overseas, as well as those who outsource labor to other countries. This move to abolish the "If it ain't made in America, Don't Buy It" slogans, by the commerce department, and foreign affairs people, who say that it only hurts America in the eyes of our foreign friends, and hampers trade, need to take a look around. I feel that the future of not only the superior craftsman, as well as the tradition of the craftsmanship in our country is at stake, but the future of our children and grandchildren as well. We all, me, you, every last one us of need to stop following the Piper down this road to hell! Damn! I hate it when ya'll provoke me. Do I feel better now? Not yet.

Real nice Elton, I'm guessing it goes into a drill chuck? What size is the mandrel, and what do you get for them?

Brent, My appologies for the my attempt at a little humor yesterday, no disrepect intended. If I can be taken seriously for a moment, concerning your question; I would like to suggest the use of, " Tincture of Benzoin". It comes in a spray bottle, or can be applied with a dauber; I recommend the spray. It is a resin compound mixed with alcohol used primarily for protecting the skin from allergic reaction, or irritation, where bandaging is used. Athletes use it to protect the skin from irritation caused by the glue in surgical bandages. I use it on horses where there necessitates such bandaging on shaved areas where sutures have been applied. It has an anticeptic quality as well, and makes the banages hold better. It is not sticky, but has a tacky quality to it, and it washes off quite easily; saddle soap would be the way I'd go for that. I think it would provide just enough friction in the seat without harming the clothing of the rider, or the leather, as it is intended for use on skin. I wish I could say I've used in such a way, but I have not. By the way, your work is Extrordinary!

Dang it Tex,....I can think 'a several ways to, 'Take the "Slick" out of the seat of a Western Saddle", or just about any other saddle fer that matter. One sure way to do it fer good would be a well placed ball from a .44 cal. at close range. Another less permanent method would be a fair sized loop in a four-plait riata, tied off fast to high-post dally horn attached to a high spirited cayuse headed the other direction. Either one works fairly pronto, and without any argument, and that ole' "slick" won't know what for! Now, all seriousness aside, why would some hand order a slick seat saddle in the first place, and then whine about it later? If I was you, I'd see this as a marketing opportunity, an' suggest to those hard-to-please folks, that they have you install an in-layed, friction- guaranteed seat plug, such as a, 'Quill-on' porcupine hide,.......problem solved. On the other hand, if money's an issue fer 'em, just peel the label off a 4 oz. can a contact cement, tell 'em it's an old family recipe, all natural, slick-seat- modifier, developed generations ago in the Old Country, and get yerseff a tidy profit. I hope this gives ya' some fodder ta' chew on, And for the Good Lord's sake, please don't take offense.<BR> <BR>Mike

Are you wanting a tree for actual "Miniature Horses", or for making half sized saddles? If you're looking for Half sized Saddle trees, you can get the composite trees from Ralide. Weaver Leather sells them. The Ralide trees are more like 40% the size of a full sized tree. I use some of them for my half size saddles where cost is a factor. I have even taken the standard composite trees and re-shaped them by cutting down the swells, building up the cantles, and building out the gullet, to make period saddles. If you're looking for in-stock, rawhide covered wood trees, I don't of anyone has that carries them, as most tree makers custom make them to specs. <BR><BR>Take a look at Rod & Denise Nickkels post. They are extrordinary craftsmen.<BR><BR>Mike

Real nice work! You can be proud of them.

Yes Sir, I sure 'nuff have, on several occasions. They was fairly securely wrapped around most every pig I ever encountered, and if my memory serves right, I'm thinkin' they all contained hair.

Dammit Boy!!!......Did ya' really think it was goin' to???

Ya' Know, Charlie.........I believe you may be right! At least you read the ladies question correctly. I need to slow down, an' take my time readin' these things, 'stead a goin' of half cocked an' makin' a dern'd fool 'a maself. Makes me wanna go out an' skin one a' them critters, just so's I kin give the poor woman a legitimate answer. Them speed readin' courses ain't all ther' cracked up ta' be.

By gawd, Oldtimer,...Looks like you got 'er done! Ole' Bullwinkle looks fairly timid, shore 'nuff!! Looks like ya' did fine job 'a wearin' them palms down to a nubbin' too! shore makes it alot easier ta' slip that headgear on, don't it?