JRedding

Bob I've heard this argued my entire twenty years in the saddle trade and don't think we'll ever hear the end of it. I'm with you I grew up on an in-skirt saddle, my dad always rode them so naturally so did we. They were all Newton Bros. back then, so they were something comparable to the Porters you knew. I'll stick up for them to the end, I've team roped, calf roped, doctored, hunted, rode colts, and built a load of them myself. I don't think I'd put one of the cheap ones through what I've done with one but if well built, and of good materials, there's no weakness in the design for man nor horse.

Oh I know the answer to this one, the problem is it's Eco-Flow, when that stuff first came out one of the suppliers we used a lot at the time sent us a huge box of it, I think it was pretty much the sampling of everything they had at the time, we experimented with it and everything came out off color or like yours some disgusting green color even the Army couldn't find a use for would come out of a bottle of brown ( what's that about ?) some one on this forum did some sampling with it and what it did over time and exposure and it was even more disgusting and unpredictable over the long term. It does bring new meaning to the phrase "Go Green" though LOL

I tool on a mispelled granite headstone that I picked up at the headstone shop for forty bucks, one side was polished and engraved ( wrong ) and the other was left a flat surface but far from the mirror finish of their best work, I took it anyway and found out I'd rather it not be the mirror finish, projects especially small ones stay put while you're tooling much better than on the glassy finish. It's flat but a little rough, having had the smoother stone before this one I like this one much better, no more slipping, sliding, or sandbagging trying to keep the leather where you want it.

If you just told him to take it elsewhere and left it at that you were much more polite than I'd have been, he'd have likely left my place knowing my full opinion of him, his wife, his dog and what I thought his children would grow up to be. People like that shouldn't expect anyone to be tolerant of their using ways and if they do they deserve to be told what you think. I think you did the right thing Ray and your ability to keep your composure doing it is a fine quality I admire but don't have, you are a true gentleman Ray.

Nice to know our dollars are driving this kind of thing. Isn't this global economy great !!!!

A good quality,sharp round knife. They come in several head sizes depending on how delicate the work is. And a lot of practice, there is some difficulty in getting the hang of it but if you're really going to do leatherwork it's a necessary skill to have.

I used to have the same affliction, I had to eventually work through it because work demanded it. The only things I found that helped were get a comfortable chair and keep adjusting the height until you feel it's best, keep your feet flat on the floor and forward where they should be, I had a bad habit of pulling mine back under my chair and cutting off the circulation that was a big help. And breath, I also caused myself a lot of the symptoms you described by holding my breath, and a lot or shallow breathing, I had my neck in knots and what felt like a golf ball beneath my shoulder blade all the time until I finally realized I was so tense. Getting comfortable and relaxing are how people stay with it all day. That and the more you do it I think you build up a tolerance for the task just most other things. Hope that helps

I'm not old enough ( thank God ) to have any first hand experience with the kind of adhesives you're asking about but I have heard old saddlemakers talk about using hide glue. They described it as a powder you had to mix with water to make your own paste. It must have worked well enough it held everything together for a long time, but I never heard anyone say anything good about using it. Kinda off topic but someone might be interested to know that the guy I learned some from converted from hide glue to plain old white Elmers glue and used it for thirty years. I've never heard it discussed on here but it is a very good leather glue and you can do things with it you can't with any contact cement. It has the ability to dry and bond under wet leather with no air allowing you to put something together and position it exactly how you want it, not the grabby one chance you get with cement. The down side to it is everything has to be glued, weighted and set aside for a day to allow it to do it's thing. It's not as convenient as cement for most things but it is more convenient in the right circumstance, and a very cheap and accessible alternative to contact cement.

I've always used a plain old metal coffee can, the plastic lids seal pretty well, I just put a hardware store paintbrush in there and leave it. I've had the same brush in a coffee can full of glue for twenty years. And when they go bad you can replace the lid without cleaning out the can and replacing it too. And if you drink the right brand of coffee they're free.

Ray, I have an old Adler 305 I bought new twenty years ago and it's never laid down on the job yet, it's been easy to keep in good tune and made a lot of money for this family. I somewhat recently was in the market for a new small flatbed for the sole purpose of sewing belts. I bought another Adler given the record of the old one, it arrived and I spent three full days trying to set it up and get it to sew nice, the goal was to have a machine that would sew belts ten per inch. After three full days of my best tinkering and driving everybody I knew nuts over the phone the machine never would sew well, and couldn't come close to a beautiful job of ten per inch. I did learn the new Adlers are a lot different than the old ones. I finally paid to ship the machine clear back east to the seller and purchased a Juki. The Juki dealer I found was much more helpful and knowledgeable than the Adler dealer I tried. He sat the machine up to do what I asked it to do before it was shipped and without much adjusting on my part it took right off and has done a beautiful job ever since. It is set up with a servo motor and it has worked well for us. I could have just gotten a lemon with the Adler but given three days and some very good sewing machine mechanics both coaching and coming to the shop to work on it I think we gave it an honest chance to perform and it just didn't seem capable of doing the job.

I don't have earrings or tats either one, just not for me. I don't really care what others do to themselves, it is more appealing if it's something done in good taste and with a little class. I hate to see kids that look like they've been slapped with a tackle box, I'll never be convinced that going to the extremes some do will never have an effect on their ability to get a job, or what kind of a job they can get looking like they do.

I've never had this problem so I just never thought of it, talk about learn something new everyday, I did have a customers new saddle that had a run in with a rat in Texas but it was just neatsfoot oiled, is there anything about it that attracts rodents that you know of or was that likely just a meal of opportunity? I mean I have seen rats get under the hood of a Ford truck and pretty much eat everything except the engine block.

I've heard a lot of concerns about olive oil turning rancid but never had a problem with it myself, I would think you'd have to have so much soaked into a piece of leather it would be saturated and dripping two days later to be concentrated enough to turn. The amount it takes to "oil" a piece of leather just to soften, preserve, and give it color isn't really that much, by the time it is absorbed into the leather and the fact that it is now out in the air and no longer in liquid form so to speak, I guess is why I've never dealt with it turning rancid like I've heard about. And maybe the climate you're in may have some bearing on it, I live in basically a desert and everything here gets dryer by the day no matter what you do so maybe that is different than what you'd have in a climate where heat and humidity combine. Again I have no sure fire answer and haven't yet met anyone who does, I can only speak with the experience I've gained, and this has never been a problem. But someone else may have had a totally different experience with it than myself.

Your friends point about it deteriorating the thread is right and wrong from what I've been able to learn over the years, it was said to break down the old linen thread used many years ago,and the theory is still often repeated today. But from what I've learned from makers working even fifty years ago it sounded as if it was debated even back then. The materials used in thread today has been greatly improved, and the manufacturers I've asked about it over the years seem to agree it will have no effect on the thread of today.As for the oil, I've used a great deal of both neatsfoot and olive, they both work good. The olive oil penetrates very well and disperses itself very evenly, the neatsfoot is a heavier oil and tends not to absorb as evenly, sometimes more likely to cause a splotchy job especially on leather that has a few issues of it's own. I like neatsfoot on utility items, and work saddles, but we use olive oil on everything when finish and appearance are the goal. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and everyone gets different results, I think method of application, temperature,amount of sunlight, humidity in your area, and definately the brand and quality of leather used all create a lot of variables that you just have to experiment with. Following instructions from someone else is not a guarantee you'll get the same results in my experience. I wish I could tell you it was more of a perfect science than that and this will work and that won't but in twenty years I've found no cut and dried method or formula that's foolproof.

I'm glad you weren't insulted because I am enough for both of us now. "I need advice from experts" well pardon me all to hell lady. My twenty years in the saddle trade isn't much of a qualification compared to what you've got under your belt I now know. God bless the poor guy who made that saddle for you, he'll need it before he gets rid of you lady.

Goldpony, Is it possible you're just plain trying too hard to get everything just right before that saddle is even broke in ? new saddles do take a considerable amount of miles before they settle in and you can really tell how well everything fits. It appears to be a well made saddle that you probably won't have any issues with once it's broke in. Do like JW and Billy suggested and just get on it and stay with it until the saddle and the saddlemaker have had a fair chance to make you happy.The only thing I could add to what JW and Billy already suggested is that the only thing worse than having a new saddle to break in is having new saddle pads, and putting the two together is almost certain to cause you greif . Break in new pads under an old saddle and a new saddle on top of old pads, use some old pads you've used before pad him up decent and just make sure it's enough you're up off his withers like it ought to be, cinch it up, and just ride it. It's great that you're being dilegent and are so responsible with your livestock and I surely don't want to insult in any way, and apoligize if I have but I've built and sold hundreds of saddles and seen folks do this before. Just relax, ride it and enjoy it, and it just might all work out. JRedding

Just throwing in my two bits,and not intending to contradict anyone. You do need a longer cinch I agree but you'll never cinch that saddle up three inches rear of where it is and keep it there, it's not as simple as that, that cinch or any cinch will naturally find it's way to the smallest part of the horse, it's cinched in the girth of the horse in the photo and even if you deliberately move it three inches back it will find it's way back right where it is in the first mile. This is why the old centerfire rigged saddles were so well known for moving all over a horses back, because cinching a horse around the tapered part of his body only happens with limited success. There is nothing wrong with it cinching slightly forward like it is, most saddles appear like yours to some degree unless they're rigged full double. If you're concerned about a dry, cinch I think the two cinch idea is a sure thing. There is a difference between what most call a roper cinch and just a wide cinch, the roper is usually woven solid several inches directly beneath the cinch buckles and then the strands single out. A plain wide cinch isn't woven at all, the strands are loose all the way from the center to the buckles. The plain wide cinch will dry quicker and stay cleaner than the woven together roper style because the strands can separate full length of itself and tend to dry better and also sweat, hair and dirt doesn't build in them as quickly as the solid woven roper style.The roper style seems to be very common and the loose strand wide cinch is more difficult to find in our area but if you're dealing with a cinchmaker and not just shopping what's locally available you should be able to get one if you'd like. Hope that makes some sense.

I own the '05 Duramax in a four door dually and it's been great, rides and drives like a cadillac and pulls like a workhorse, I usually run with a twelve foot overhead camper and two or three horses behind and have no complaints. I've wore out several trucks rigged like this since the mid 80's and this is the best I've had. Mine is completely stock, no chips or exhaust work of any kind. I live in northeastern Utah so there's a mountain pull between here and everywhere else on the map. No overheating and pretty decent mileage even over the worst pulls like Vail Pass that takes you up to I think about ten or twelve thousand feet going into Denver. I drive an '07 Power Stroke at work everyday and it's been a headache, lots of breakdowns, noise, and plenty of smoke but not much power. That thing has had so much warranty work done on it it's ridiculous, I don't see how anyone could afford to own it once the warranty ran out. I hope it's just a lemon and they're not all like this one.

Please add me to the list, how firm on the size are we sticking to ? Would it be allright if it were a little bigger maybe index card size instead of business card size. ( I don't do well in confined spaces )

Slick, I doubt you'll find anyone who just wants to argue, that's not what people come here for. It's becoming apparant you're the guy no one invites to the party twice.

search Alltribes, they sell native american jewelry but they do sell screw back coin conchas most of the time. There's a lot of catagories to search through but I think they're found along with concha belts or something like that.

I like it Bruce, just plain like it. Anyone who wouldn't want that is just too picky. I hope he's kinder and gentler with it than I was mine. P.S. I have one of the old Smith Bros. cans you want, but it's all covered in stickers and I'm keepin' it. LOL

In response to" where's the difference " just one opinion but a better class beveler would be my own second choice of tools to improve my work right after a good swivel knife. The more expensive bevelers are much easier to run than the cheap ones, the angle is correct and the curvature depending on which you choose is the key to effortlessly walking a beveler while beveling smooth. As for the difference in appearance and quality added to the finished work, the more expensive bevelers are always made with more lines per inch than the mass produced, and if you know what you're shopping for and ask you can buy them at more or less lines per inch to achieve different effects. As for bargrounders to me they are the most difficult tool to buy a nice, even set of. Even the finest toolmakers will admit they're one of the most difficult tools to produce. When makers like King and Beard struggle a little to produce a beatiful set the likelyhood of a four dollar bargrounder even being acceptable on a professional level is slim. I've wore out a few sets and dread having to replace them every time, I've returned one or two out of a three peice set to Barry King more than once, not that they were bad they just weren't identical to eachother. Some toolers I know tell of waiting over a year for a set of Ellis Barnes and pay a lot more than I do for Kings. So I'd have to disagree there's no difference. I've sold a lot of work that had a Craftool tooling job and I felt it was good or I wouldn't have let it go.But I like what I do with the tools I use today a lot better. Everyone strives for their personal best at this that's part of what it's about, and no one should back down just because they don't have an unlimited tool budget. I think the point I'm trying to make is if you like tooling, keep going with what you have. And if you are going to stick with it, it's worth the investment of the better tools, they will make it easier, more fun, and produce better results. Everyone talks like this is the investment of a lifetime, it's really not as bad as it appears. I have a small rack of tools that I use ninety plus percent of the time that consists of about three dozen tools. I tool from saddles to belts and wallets with pretty much the same tools. Of three dozen tools two dozen of them are upper end expensive tools, the other dozen are Craftools, most have been modified but three or four are original. Two dozen Barry King type tools aren't so expensive it's unattainable over time. Leather tools are the one place I've found money can buy happiness, because I'm happy when I turn out something and it looks like I dreamt it would, and I'm able to do it without a lot of frustration and struggling, that's what spending the dollars on a better class of tools has bought me and after doing it I'd still reccomend it everyday of the week. As for bending and breaking tools I've been rough on them all, I tool pretty dry and put plenty of swing behind it so I've torqued a few.

Got to throw in on this one, I agree and disagree with some of what's being said. Craftools do serve a purpose as I see it, they're great for someone to take a dip into leatherwork with before you know if it's something you'll fall in love with. They've certainly made it affordable for a lot of us to get started. If it weren't for cheap priced tools the upper end of the tool market would have very few customers. It's doubtful very many people would lay down a thousand dollars for a selection of Kings, Beards, Barnes etc. just to see if they liked tooling leather. The people who should be most supportive of cheap tools are the guys who make expensive tools because the makers of cheap tools are the ones who bring people into leather tooling initially and create customers for the makers of upper end tools. That said there is no denying the benefit of a better made tool. Better quality steel, better knurling that makes it easier to tool for long periods, and most of all a sharper, crisper imprint that can only be made by a tool that's machined instead of cast.Better tools are made by people who have a greater knowledge of how a tool will be used and what's expected of it day in and day out. That's part of what you pay for when you pay thirty to fifty dollars for a single tool, you're not only paying for a better made tool but you're also paying to receive the benefit of they're knowledge and experience using them that they apply to designing and building a better tool. I have buckets of Craftools I've bought and inherited, but I also have racks of tools I've paid a small fortune for. I do have a few Craftools amongst my regulars and I have some I don't think the finest toolers in the world could make anything look better than crap with. I'm really against cheap swivel knives, if I could only afford to splurge on one good tool it would be swivel knife, I disagree with Slick that there's little difference. My ol' truck will get up to eighty but it's not much like eighty in a sportscar, that's about the difference to me between a two hundred dollar swivel knife and a seven dollar swivel knife. I doubt you'll meet very many toolers who've really reached a high level of craftsmanship who don't mostly use the more expensive tools. If a person is tooling decent with cheap tools I would be willing to promise if you set that same person down with a selection of the finer tools there will be a very noticeable improvement in the overall quality of what they can do with better tools and the same talent.

Have enjoyed seeing everyones set-up, here's mine. I built the shop and all the benches and cabinets inside, still a lot of work to do if I finish everything that's planned. Yeah that's a four wheeler with a plow inside it's winter here so I keep it inside to make sure it starts and the seats not froze. Don't laugh.