JRedding

David, I think this brings the only clarity for me I've ever found in what you've been trying to tell us, the photos really help explain your way of thinking to me. This is what I see though I'm sure it will differ. Photo A is where you'd naturally ride bareback, photo B is where I see an English saddle sit, and photo C is where a western stock saddle sits. This is where I see your thought of ideal differing from mine. I wouldn't choose A as my choice to sit on a horse because it's putting all the weight he's carrying on the front end, the smoothest gaited horse will ride rough and have no choice but to learn to work on his front end, there goes any caliber of an actual stop and a horse couldn't rein very well when his front end is too heavy to get off his front feet and work on his butt. The result of riding a horse that far forward would prevent him from doing the job I need him for, if he stops on his front end and has to walk a circle to turn around he's rendered pretty much useless in a corrall sorting cows. Much of our country has been described as only having two places to ride up and down, and some of the country surrounding where I live is worse. As an example I had a customer in Idaho that runs fifteen hundred mother cows in country that supports them year round with no feeding hay just a lot of winter riding in the river breaks. They never put a horse in that country until he's five and they never left them in there past the age of nine or they'd stiffen up so bad in the front end they'd ruin them. Under conditions like these any extra abuse of a horses front end would be drastic.Position B would probably be the ideal best for the horse in the long term. I do think there would be some things I'd expect a horse to do that may not be possible because he's still carrying more weight up front than is normal to me and I'm assuming something would have to be different. I can see how someone just trail riding on pretty flat ground could ride like that all the time. I don't know if someone could maintain that position and do things that a western saddle was intended for, a forward position like that would make it difficult to stand up and rope a cow, when you stood up and leaned forward you'd be clear up over his front end in position A I guess, so far it would make it a little dangerous to be runnin' him through the brush. I'd think the weight that far forward would increase the chance he's going down. I've had ones head go between his front feet and out under his a@# at full tilt before so I'm not going to volunteer to do the study on how the laws of physics may apply to that scenario. I think the position C in the photo is a little exaggerated, that appears to me where you'd be if your knees were locked and you were really pushing against the cantle. But I'd agree that is roughly where most people sit in a western stock saddle. It may not be the ideal position for a horses structure to be carrying the weight from a veterinarians point of veiw, but a horse likely wasn't designed by nature and put on earth for the sole purpose of carrying a person. The C position seems to allow a horse to do things he can't with a person on his back anywhere else. A calf horse could never perform the athletic act he does with someone sitting up on top of his withers, a reining horse could never slide twenty feet and change directions with his front end being weighted to the ground, and a ranch horse couldn't safely navigate the brush, rocks and down timber he has to just to put in a days work. The position of the western saddle as it is has evolved out of nesscecity apparantly. In all fairness I'm sure a hunter -jumper couldn't perform well with a western saddle and someone sitting in Davids C position. The position they ride in has evolved to be the best for the task at hand also. Everything has it's place, and what's ideal under one circumstance isn't under another. I think maybe why you get misunderstood and frustratred with guys like me is that we come from different worlds.My impression (and it may be wrong) of back east where you are is that people mainly keep horses for sport or hobby, folks go to a barn to learn to ride, and most horses only job is the entertainment of their owner. My impression is probably inaccurate but that's the impression I've got, there are no cows to tend, no mountains, and most riders are confined to worked arenas. Riding a horse has never been a hobby you pick up like sking or instead of bowling to me it's just part of everyday life like driving, it's really not a decision you up and make one day like I think I'll learn to ride a horse. It's been a nescessaty for parts of life as long as I can remember. I "learned" to ride a horse because you sure couldn't follow my dad if you were afoot. It's not something I had to study to learn to do it's as natural to me as walking. I don't think a riding a horse is the same to me as it is to you. And some of what I'd want in a saddle you might not understand because it's not the same as what you'd do. I think your ideas will work in your world but I have seen folks with a lot of training about where to keep your feet and how to sit a horse come to mine and at the end of the day following a cowpuncher through the brush and rocks it seems to dissappear and they're sittin' like a cowpuncher because it's the only way that works where we're at.

Jennifer, I'm glad you took that so well, some don't. That mare's still real young, ride her into shape and let her finish growing before you overdiagnos anything and panick. Horses that young often look high in the butt, six or eight months ago she likely didn't One old rancher around here thats raised more colts than most always said colts grow one end at a time and if you watch close their high in the butt and then their front end catches up and then their high in the butt again until their front end catches up. Just out of curiosity do you know how to measure her and see how much growth she has left? Horses are just like kids they grow and mature at their own pace. There's nothing wrong with that mare some time and a lot of wet saddleblankets won't cure. Stick with it get her out of the arenas and round pens, put some miles on her and enjoy her while you're saddle shopping.

I wish I could take the pictures that you requested, but unfortunately I am unable to take anymore pictures because the purse was sold and these are the only pictures that I had. I really appreciate all your generous comments. Thank you. Arvis

Jennifer, there's not much to add to all thats been said, you've gotten a lot of good information about saddles, trees, what's available and what to expect. The only thing I've noticed that I'd point out if you were my customer and I'm not intending to be critical or offend you in any way so if I do I'll apologize in advance. You said the mare is a four year old and she was started a year and a half ago so I'm assuming she's just coming four this spring. Mam, that mare's too well cared for, she's packing a lot of extra weight, I only bring it up because you've asked for input into finding a saddle that fits and the fact that she's been eating too well for the amount of work shes doing is a factor in getting a saddle to fit and fit well. Some may disagree with me about whether she is or she isn't but It's safe to say if she went to cow camp for thirty days she'd come home a different looking animal. As Rod and Denise said "a good fitting saddle will not move around" and her weight is going to make that tough to acheive. I'm not suggesting you starve on her she's just heavy for her age. It's not just to get a saddle to fit it's about her overall health. Horses are just like people, we've all been told people who carry extra weight especially when their young tend to have problems with their knees, feet, and sometimes if circumstances are right after a long time of being overweight it can be a factor in just plain dropping dead from a heart condition. And horses are no different. I'm only saying that mare will be easier to find a saddle for and more comfortable under it if she dropped a little weight. Again I apoligize if my input has offended you and I'm not insulting you as a horse owner in any way, in fact I think your too good a horse owner, I'm just trying to be honest with you about something I think will help in your search for a good saddle.

I would like to give a big THANK YOU to all of you for your wonderful comments. I just started working in our shop a few years ago. It was really nice to have such a great teacher (Jim) while learning. It makes it frustrating trying to learn how to turn out something to be proud of, when the bar gets raised so high with the quality of work Jim turns out, but it definately challenges you and pushes you to get better. We enjoy working together in the shop and sometimes getting to work on projects together. Again I really appreciate the nice compliments. Arvis

Thanks so much for all the generous compliments we do appreciate it. I'm glad someone enjoyed the quiver, it's just been hanging around the shop, I kinda doubt I'll sell it both our kids shoot traditional gear and I'm thinking I'll make one more similiar to this one and give them to the kids.

I once agreed to have a guy come into my shop and help him build a saddle by the time he built enough of it to get to the cantle binder every finger he hadn't cut he'd hit with a hammer. And then came time to sew the binder, six hours later he had a dent in his palm that would hold three quarters, reopened every cut from the days before, and seriously needed a chiropractor, but he did say the fingers he'd smashed with a hammer didn't hurt too bad when he stuck an awl in them. It's normal in the beginning. Keep adjusting your awl and needle size like Bruce and Bob suggested and with practice you'll get the hang of it. The thing to remember about leatherwork is if it's hard to do you're doing it wrong. It will never be the easiest thing you've ever done but it shouldn't be kicken' your butt every step of the way once you get the right awl and needle combination and more practice.

Just playing on the computer tonight and wanted to post some pictures of a nice project done by my wife Arvis who works in the shop alongside me everyday.

I haven't posted anything in a long time and this quiver came out pretty good so I thought I'd share some pictures.

The alcohol allows the leather to open up and stretch that's what you want so it will take a new shape. It's like the old trick of spraying new boots with Windex, it's the alcohol in the window cleaner that allows it to stretch. You can buy what's called Shoe Stretch from shoe findings distributors that's already mixed or you can mix your own. It is just rubbing alcohol. Watch for water marks above the fringe on darker colors, soak the fringe in a pan of it and spray bottle above the water line a ways will help avoid water marks.

Use a 50/50 mixture of alcohol and water instead of plain water, twist each fringe tighter than you really want it they'll relax some, put a finger at the base of the fringe so you can't accidentally pull a weak one off, pull and hold it a few seconds and move on . They'll stay forever.

David, I hate to ask but I gotta know, have you ever actually gotten anyone to do that ?

Rod, theoretically it may work as Bruce said "tagging" as I was taught back to the horn would be possible but some guys grab a horn a couple jumps leaving the box that may be a little inconvenient with a big fat horn it would have to be pretty small for a wood post. When we roped a lot of ammy rodeos I used to see a few guys using high forked saddles that would run a rope under the gullet, up the back of the swell and tie it on just to lower the jerk. You mentioned tradition , I don't know whose going to go first and show up with that rig, the heckling might be second only to grabbing a wig and entering the barrel racing I'm afraid.

Richard, I'll say this hoping not to turn your thread into another "how to fit a tree" discussion but my first priority in a ropin' saddle is a good fitting tree. The reason I put this first is this sport is where it really matters, pleasure riders worry about it constantly and most ropers don't worry about it enough, a pleasure rider can ease along a lot of miles and get by with less than great, you might get one steer, one night, or maybe one week but you're horses will quit working at some point if they're getting pinched or sore. All that time spent schooling a rope horse comes undone as soon as he's sore, bad habits, and bad behavior are soon to follow. So I'd say that's that's my number one, tree style is a matter of personal choice, I've had Bowmans, Chuck Sheppards, Toots Mansfeilds, Dee Picketts and liked them all in their own way. I don't really care for D-ring rigs I'd rather ride an in-skirt myself but again that's personal choice, I'm with Bruce on the wide flank cinches you need some width, if everything and everybody is playing the game well it's not such a concern but it doesn't happen like that. Your nephew will unload somewhere and the calf roping calves will be so huge you can't tell them from the breakaway calves, and everywhere you jackpot theirs some guy riding a head horse that's got to slam you back there or his horse won't face. so the wide flank is a nescessaty for your own horses comfort. In summary if it fits your horse, and you've did what you can to see it's a comfortable rig for a horse to work under the rest is just for you, pick what you like and ride it. Calf roping pretty much dictates you're gonna ride a low cantle and wide stirrups but other than that you've really got a lot of choices.

Just so I'm not misunderstood I'm not hackin' on anyone if they choose to stick with a twenty dollar knife, it just helped me when I spent the money and upgraded, if someone else does fine without spending it great. But saying you've got a Craftool knife that's twenty or thirty years old isn't the same thing as the one you'd get today, I've got a lot of the old ones and they're nothing like the ones a person gets at the present time. I rode an old Potts-Longhorn saddle when I was a kid that was a production saddle in it's day but a "production" saddle made in '72 doesn't much resemble one made in '02. The quality of most things off the shelf has changed a lot in the last twenty or thirty years. Bustedlifters forty year old knives are probably the same quality you'd find in all but the most expensive swivels today.

I've got to agree with the majority here, better tools help produce better results. Why work so hard to acheive professional results with beginners tools. The cost of a good swivel knife is ten times that of the cheapest, but worth every penny. It's really not how long the cradle will spin, or if it's engraved , it's if it helps you do a better job. For people who spend anywhere from a fair amount of time with one in their hand, to those who spend a lot of time with one in your hand, something to consider is the long term effect of struggling with a cheapo, it's no secret leather carving can turn you into a cripple when you're old. So you've got to consider the benefit of running a knife that works smoothly and isn't fatiguing to the damage of years spent with hand cramps and sore forearms. The cheap knives serve a purpose they're great to start out with before you know if this is something you will stick with but if you're going to stay with it a better quality swivel is a good investment in both you're work and you're hands.

Regis, how about this one , if you like it the way it is and don't want to add anymore to it with an edging or a backing that shows, how about a leather backing ? the edge can be finished along with the hanging itself and should disappear, for a wall hanging glueing it up with Barge contact cement or something similiar would be sufficient if it's hanging on the wall for appearance only sewing or binding the edge wouldn't be absolutely nescesary. A good glue job on something like that will take tools to ever seperate.

Thank you Bob

I'm not real familiar with them but I can tell you there's a few hundred of them outside the back door of the treemakers shop I use, I've talked with him about using them his reply was "just mark which side you'd like it to fit" after receiving hundreds of them he says they rarely get one that represents both sides accurately. Apparantly your horse has to be standing up perfectly square , without any slumping, and remain there with his weight distributed evenly on all four feet while it cools. We went out back and sorted through them nearly an hour and I couldn't find one that looked remotely the same on both sides. It kind of leads one to beleive either they don't give you a lot of usable information or there's a lot of really deformed horses out there. You might discuss it with the treemaker you use and find out if they consider it useful at all.

Bruce, since I live in the same town as Timberline I've used Randys trees almost exclusively for nearly twenty years. I've built over nine hundred saddles on Randys trees and probably spent weeks hanging out in his shop over the years. His half-narrow is pretty much what you've already figured out, I'm not sure because I've always used the half-narrow but I beleive he builds a full narrow seat bar also but don't hold me to it .I beleive the half -narrow bar seems to help out a little if you're working towards a more comfortable seat specifically for women. Everyone has their own theory about seats for ladies, I just try to keep in mind that a womens thigh in general is a round shape and a mans is more of an oval, even if their the same size they tend to be a different shape. I agree you can make a seat feel the same with your groundwork like you said, but here is my theory on it , it's just a theory but it seems to work for me. Everyone talks about close contact and it's a great thing but there are limits to it, a saddletree has to take up as much room as it takes, a treemaker can only thin a bar, and narrow a bar so much and then he reaches the cut off point and he can't do any more for you.So once he's done all that can be done it's up to the saddlemaker to build a seat on it. The only way to narrow a ground seat is to build upward, you have to go up to go narrow. By building upward to gain narrowness and create an opportunity to make more room under the thigh it's only taking you farther from the horses back, and you're losing what little you can do to maintain that close contact feeling, in extreme cases of building up for narrowness you can create a saddle people refer to as riding on , not in. I think the little bit Randy helps you out with his half-narrow just makes it a little easier to get a narrow feeling seat with a little more room for the thigh with a little less chance of getting that on it not in it feeling from trying to narrow it up. I'm a beleiver it's helpful to the saddlemaker, and the benefit to the rider could only be small but like they say an inch isn't a lot unless it's on the end of your nose . Myself , even if it's only slightly beneficial, I'll take it.

I use very dense foam in my inlaid seats, I've used several types and brands over the years. The thought on the dense foam is it's predictable to work, doesn't change over time, and I can quilt it without it becoming the lumpy rock Bruce mentions. To me an inlaid cushion is mostly cosmetic and I'm really not concerned with it feeling padded, I beleive a well shaped seat is the key and all the padding you can stuff into one can't make poor groundwork ride well. To put one in I start with a slightly oversize piece and bevel the edges back until when put in place it bulges up through the cutout to just slightly below seat level around the outside edge, enough below seat level when the seat material itself is added it brings it to level , so it transitions from seat to cushion as smoothly as possible. I add a piece of two ounce belt lining scrap on the bottom side after the cushion is sewn in and skive the edges out well just in case someday it has to be disassembled the foam itself isn't glued to the groundseat and has to be destroyed to lift the entire seat out.

I think it looks great, it's a fine piece of work keep it up.

It may be your first holster but it's a pretty dang nice holster. I hadn't thought of it in years but your easy bake story jogged my memory. I knew a saddlemaker who had what he called a hot box he'd came up with to dry things out in a hurry. It was just a plywood box, his was about two feet wide and three feet tall with a door in the front and a couple of shelves that slipped in and out easily. It had an opening cut out in the back and he heated it with a small electric room heater , it was just a little one like you'd get to plug in and warm up a bathroom or something and he used the ones with a fan in them to blow the warm air into the box. He'd set the little heater just outside the opening in the back so it would get enough fresh air it wouldn't overheat and shut down and close the door and let it run. The combination of the heat and the fan circulating the air dried things out in a hurry and it wouldn't bake anything to death. His didn't have any vent holes cut in it but the door was real sloppy so if your door closed tight I'd think you may need to cut vent holes to let it circulate. That's just what I could remember about it I'm sure you'd kind of have to figure it out for yourself if you wanted to build one but that's what I could remember about his. Someone here is always trying to find ways to dry things out and I've seen this work so I thought it may be and idea someone could make use of.

That's just a nice quiver, your pattern appears to have worked out, I'd like to have more to say but it's hard to comment on a great job except to say GREAT JOB !!! I like it, that's a fine piece of leatherwork .

Andy, I've had a 205 a long time and I've had similiar stuff happen just go through everything top and bottom and make sure everything is in place, I've had a loose piece of thread get wound up in the shuttle somewhere and cause problems , if your bobbin case gets wore or your tension spring on your bobbin it can free spool and do something similiar, make sure it's clean ,make sure your bobbins in right and not spooling off the wrong direction, ( I've done that ) and pull some thread through it and make sure the tension feels right and pull more than a few inches through it to make sure it stays consistant. Check everything top side and make sure it's wound correctly I've had it slip out of a tension on top and it won't pull your stitch up in it will just pull slack off your spool and not pull the stitch up in, every time something like this has happened to mine it's been something like one of these things I've never had a real problem with mine and it's getting old, they're a great machine it's probably something minor.