BillB

A friend of mine has asked me to construct a black powder shot bag he saw in the Black Foot Museum. It is constructed from the tanned hides from a deer's leg from the knee to the hoof including the dew claw. The construction is such that the dew claws form a ring at the base of the bag so that the bag is held in place on a table by the dew claws. I am looking for the tanned skins from eight (8) deer legs to include the dew claws and the hide to the hoof. Any assistance would be appreciated. BillB

Leather is the skin of a animal. If the animal has a smooth skin, then when tanned, it will have a smooth surface. If the skin has a pattern to it like alligator, ostrich, etc, then the tanned hide will also have that pattern. That is, of course, assuming that the hide was not put through a roller press to change the surface texture. The smooth leather in the picture looks like cow, the I don't know what the textured one is but it does look natural. I would say that the edge of the wallet is not properly burnished. It has the same look and texture as the rest of the leather. If you go to the top of the How Do I Do That section of the board, you will find a thread that has been pinned called "Finishing Edges" by Hidepounder. In that thread he posts a link to a pdf file that explains how to burnish and edge. BillB

The only way I know to "finish" the flesh side is to: 1. using 100 grit sand paper, sand it as smooth as possible; 2. apply beeswax by hand rubbing it into the surface with a rag until it melts and forms a "smooth" surface. BillB

wareagle, I had to do some research on Wikipedia.org before I tried to give you my opinion on this touchy subject. On Wikipedia.org under the section about the label "Made in America" I found this: "Legal requirementsU.S. content must be disclosed on automobiles and textile, wool, and fur products. No law requires most other products sold in the U.S. to be marked or labeled Made in USA or have any other disclosure about their amount of U.S. content. However, manufacturers and marketers and Persons who choose to make claims about the amount of U.S. content in their products must comply with the FTC’s Made in USA policy. American-made chopsticks showing the "Made in USA" label. A Made in USA claim can be expressed (for example, "American-made") or implied. In identifying implied claims, the Commission focuses on the overall impression of the advertising, label, or promotional material. Depending on the context, U.S. symbols or geographic references (for example, U.S. flags, outlines of U.S. maps, or references to U.S. locations of headquarters or factories) may convey a claim of U.S. origin either by themselves, or in conjunction with other phrases or images. In 1996 the FTC [1] proposed that the requirement be stated as: It will not be considered a deceptive practice for a marketer to make an unqualified U.S. origin claim if, at the time it makes the claim, the marketer possesses and relies upon competent and reliable evidence that: (1) U.S. manufacturing costs constitute 75% of the total manufacturing costs for the product; and (2) the product was last substantially transformed in the United States.However, this was just a proposal and never became part of the final guidelines which were published in the Federal Register [2] in 1997. [edit]Assembled in USA A product that includes foreign components may be called "Assembled in USA" without qualification when its principal assembly takes place in the U.S. and the assembly is substantial. For the "assembly" claim to be valid, the product’s "last substantial transformation" also should have occurred in the U.S. That’s why a "screwdriver" assembly in the U.S. of foreign components into a final product at the end of the manufacturing process doesn’t usually qualify for the "Assembled in USA" claim. [edit] With the definitions above, I would say you can at least claim that it was assembled in the USA. If you do any art work and tooling you should point out that it was done in the USA. I would hate to see good leather craft be put down simply because we can not identify where the leather came from. BillB

I have two checkbooks and I used a leather Bi-Fold Organizer at work for years. In fact, when I retired I gave several away including the one I had been using and saw all of them being used by my last day. Credit Cards do not work in all places or for all purchases. At my favorite stores I will use cash or check since honoring a credit card actually costs them. BillB

One test for strength is to test its "break point". To do this you will need several pieces of leather all cut to the same size (length & width). You will also have to sort and record the thickness of each piece. You then hang the strip of leather for a very sturdy device and start hanging weights on it until it breaks. There are laboratory devices that do this with a hydraulic system, sort of the inverse of a press. This will l give you only an approximation of strength since there are a lot of factors that are hard to measure that will affect the strength, i.e. condition of the leather, the density of the fibers, the consistency of the leather across the whole test article =, i.e. variance in thickness from end to end and side to side. A while back (years) Road Rider Magazine did testing of leather motorcycle gear to the same gear made form other materials, e.g. leather chaps to denim chaps to kevlar chaps. They not only measured strength but also wear resistance. This test was done by dragging the test article on the asphalt with a set weight on it to see how much abrasive damage was done over a set weight and distance. You might want to contact them to see of any of that data is still around and how they did all their testing. BillB

I would try a mix of water and vinegar followed by a cleaning with saddle soap and finally an application of neatsfoot oil. BillB

leathervan, At the top of the forum section called "How Do I Do That" is a thread titled "Casing Leather" by Hidepounder. He has compiled a step by step process for casing leather prior to tooling based on his experience. It is very good. Casing Leather is name given to getting the leather wet enough to tool and it is more than just getting the surface wet. I actually soak mine to get moisture all the way through to the inner core of fibers. I then let it start to dry until the surface returns to its natural color and it is cool to the touch. To get good deep impressions, you have to soften all the fibers, not just the surface ones. BillB

I would not use waxed paper since the wax could rub off on the leather. When I have shipped I have wrapped my work in Tissue Wrapping paper left over from Christmas, put it in an box slightly oversized and fill the space with shipping peanuts so that the piece is in the middle. Any shipping store should be able to help you out. BillB

If you don't get any answers you may want to move this post to "Fabrication - Leather Sewing Machines". Some of us "Old Timers" only monitor the sections we are interested in and not all the "New" post on the whole site. That sort of helps keeps things organized. The section I referenced is where most of the discussion on sewing machines is held. BillB

OK, let us talk about what it is that we do to carve or tool leather. Unlike wood carving which removes material, leather carving or tooling is the process of compressing leather. The material we use is leather or on other words the skin of a cow. Now this skin has been tanned which is a chemical process to remove the organic material and leave the inorganic material behind. Like skin, if not properly maintained it will dry out, harden and crack. You could think of this almost like our hair, which is also inorganic material once it leaves the root. Now when we buy this skin that has been chemically treated, we need to start moving to a more natural state. If we are going to "Tool" it we take it through a process the softens the fibers so that they can be compress and bent into position and stay in that position. This requires us to get it to a state of moisture content to do this effectively, that process is called casing. There are lots of discussion on this site about casing, so I will not cover that here, but what I will do is talk about the results if it is not properly "cased". If the moisture content is too high, then the skin/leather becomes spongy and will not retain the compression or bending. If there is not enough moisture, it will remain too hard and not compress or bend to the extent to have a good impression. You could think about this process like get a hair perm. We use water or a mix of water and other additives because water has both a good penetration characteristic as well as a good evaporation rate. By drying the skin/leather, we are "locking" in the pattern that we have compressed/bent the fibers into. Those of us who also form leather into form fitting holsters or masks will use hot water to achieve even more interesting bends that will lock into place once dried. If we were to use oil, cold or hot, it might work since the oil does have a good penetration characteristic, but the evaporation rate is extremely slow. That would mean a very long wait to get the moisture content to the proper level if it is too high to hold the tooled pattern or the bend. Since it takes so long to evaporate, then using hot oil when form fitting leather would probably not work since the oil would cool long before the moisture content was reduced and the form may never hold. Once the leather has been tooled or formed, and has dried locking the tooled pattern or the form in place, then adding oil to restore enough of moisture content so that the leather does not dry out, get hard and crack, is not enough to soften the leather to remove the tooling or the form. Though if you were to soak the piece in boiling oil, I would bet that it would not hold either once it was saturated. I have successfully removed tooling that was done without any cut lines by soaking the leather to it's saturation point and softly smoothing the leather. I don't recommend this for removing tooling errors since it affects the whole piece. As always, this is from my experience and I hope it helps. BillB

I covered my work bench with a single piece of plexiglass, 1 inch thick. This gives me a solid base to tool against and a base that helps seal moisture in for the night when I cover the bench with a second piece of plexiglass also 1 inch thick. I use this size plexiglass on the top so that the weight flattens the work over night and I don't have to glue or tape the piece I am working on onto anything. I also have a spray bottle filled with water that I use to add moisture as I work on the piece. For reference, I do leather bi-folds for 8.5" X 11" writing tablets so the piece of leather I am working on is @ 20" x 13" This is what I have found to work best for me. Bill B

You may want to subscribe to "The Leather Crafters & Saddlers Journal". In the back of this Journal is a list of Guilds and Societies that are involved in Leather Crafts. They list: Emerald Valley Leather Crafters Guild in Eugene, Oregon, Contact: 541-687-1120 Rogue Valley Leather Guild, Central Point, Oregon, Contact: 5451-826-3177 and International Internet Leathercrafters' Guild, Contact: treasurer@iilg.net BillB

I would suggest you look at quality rain covers for motorcycle touring bike seats. These covers have to be able to slip over seat area and the draw tight below the seat which is a smaller area. Because the area below the seat represent a small area than the set you will always have some gather, especially around the back to accommodate that area difference. I would also suggest you change the material you are using. If you are having trouble with the dye rubbing off on your hands and are worried about it rubbing off on your pants, why are you not also worried about it rubbing of on that saddle you are trying to protect. I would use some 2 - 4 oz natural leather. That is my opinion at least. BillB

I forgot to add, Did you ask him how he calibrated his computer system? I would bet that he bought the system, set it up and just started using it and forgot to calibrate it. If it uses a camera, then the focal length of the lens is used to compute the relative size of the object. If that is not set correctly, then he would get incorrect measurements.

I don't think you are going mad. If it fits inside a box 3' X 2' then it is no more than 6 sq. ft. If it is advertised as 10 sq ft. then I would not expect less than 9 and no more than 11. That being said, you have a few choices: If you paid by credit card, let the credit card company handle the dispute; Since it is on eBay, then you can rate the seller and explain why you rated him/her the way you did; If you used PayPal, you can talk to them and let them arbitrate. I don't know why anyone would have to use a computer to compute the area since in geometry it is simply length times width for a roughly rectangular shape. If it is not rectangular, then it can be thought of as a set of smaller shapes (rectangles and triangles) and their summed areas would then be the area. Did you take a picture of it with a yard stick showing the max length and max width? One should always document the issue and evidence, otherwise it is your word against his word. I do recommend that you rate the seller on eBay. BillB

I would be concerned that the natural oils required to keep the leather supple would be removed with the hot water the same as the dye was. Once dried, the leather could become hard and brittle. I would expect that the leather will need some oiling to get it back to a supple state.

Dave, When I think of terraces for farming I think of the Mountains in Mexico or over in Europe, not the flat lands of Iowa. Is he referring to the rows of cut grain that would look like rings around the hill? If so, then this would be done with how it is beveled, textured and colored. Getting the vanishing point correct my be the hardest part of getting the picture done. Good Luck and send pictures of what you do. BillB

I am not familiar with that product. I am concerned when I look at the pictures and I see that the before picture of the saddle shows leather that still has 90% of its original color and finish showing and it appears to be dust covered and dry. This is not the case with your saddle where large portions have turned dark. Since you have no pictures of the saddle before you applied the LEXOL I can not tell if the darkening is from the moisture content of the LEXOL or from wear / dirt / aging. You can also clearly see all of the white buck stitching. If they sell a small sample bottle, you might want to try it on a piece of the saddle that is covered. If you like the results, then get more and do the rest. If the darkening in your saddle is due to the moisture added by the LEXOL, then it should lighten up over the next week as the moisture content balances out. As for the buck stitching, if it is easily accessible, then you could replace it. For now, I would step back and let the leather rest for about a week to see if any of the color comes back. Since this is your saddle I would take it that there is no rush to get it finished. BillB

Fiebing is my choice for oils, finishes and dyes/stains. I am not familiar with a Fiebing's product called Leather Detergent. I expect that the thread used was a Waxed thread to protect it. The problem with waxed thread is if dirt gets worked into the wax, then it will never come back to the original color. Removing the stitching and re-sewing into the same holes would be done by hand. If you replace on set of stitching with brand new white stitching, would you not have to replace all stitching to stay consistent? Again, some of the color that you are looking at is from natural aging of the leather and from use. I personally like the aged, used look. It tells me that this is not a new saddle that has been made to look old. The coloration and pattern of coloration is part of its history. It tells me that this was not a saddle used once a year in a parade. It might have been used at rodeos and lots of them. I would stop cleaning and start thinking about the type of finish the saddle should have. If I was going to go that far with the saddle, then I would take it to a local saddlery/tack shop and get their perspective. BillB

I prefer to use Neatsfoot oil when restoring suppleness to working leather. I would not add anymore oil at this time. It looks like there is still some dirt/dust along with the natural aging coloration of the leather. You can see the aging coloration under the skirt where it goes from light brown to medium brown to dark brown. I have some 50 year old leather that has never been outside and it has gone to the medium brown color by itself. Did you use any type of soap when you did your cleaning? Even so, I would get some white saddle soap (does not add any color) and a soft sponge and clean do some more cleaning. After each cleaning with saddle soap it should be buffed with a soft rag or towel. I had had to clean some old leather three and four times to get the dirt and dust out. This process take time and elbow grease to accomplish. Here are the steps I would do next. 1. Clean saddle using White Saddle Soap (go to www.fiebings.com and look under leather care, any tack store should have it) Only get enough water on the sponge to lather up the soap. Clean and buff sections of the saddle until the full saddle is done. As you are cleaning the saddle check the sponge to see what it is picking up. If it is small particles of leather then you need to be careful since you may be dealing with a case of dry rot. Dry rot can set in when wet leather is put away for a long time. The water takes out the natural oils, the leather dries and since there is no oil to keep the cell structures strong, they deteriorate. Putting oils back in will help restore the leather but there will always be some amount of leather that will be lost. In the worst case scenario, the leather can actually tear apart with little force. 2. Let it sit and dry. It is my experience that you will never get it back to the color scene under the skirts since there is no way to remove the coloration caused by aging. 3. I would repeat this process twice from what I see in your pictures. 4. I would then evaluate the surface of the leather after I have done a good job of buffing after the last application of saddle soap. Saddle Soap also provides a nice soft finish. If this is not the type of finish you want then I would look at some of the finishers at the Fiebing's website under Leathercraft - Top Finishes. I would apply that top finish to one of the belly straps to see it is what I would want. If it does, then do the saddle. 5. As for the application of Lexol or Neatsfoot Oil, I would apply it to the flesh side of the leather (this is the non-tooled or rough surface) where ever possible. Any application of oil will darken the leather for a period of time until it soaks in. By applying it to the flesh side, you will know you have applied enough when the tooled side starts to darken as the oil penetrates through. Once that happens you have applied enough even if the leather is still a little stiff. Some of the stiffness is because the leather has not been worked and will disappear as the saddle used. Let me know how you go forward with this process and send pictures as you go forward. It will help anyone else with a similar restoration project. BillB

It should go as fair warning to all of us who use kits from any producer of kits to "dry" fit the pieces to see if they align properly and if not then one has the choice of returning the product or fixing it. I use several Tandy Kits and all of them have some little problems. Such is the life when dealing with companies that out source over seas. I have also run into this problem is buying new parts from the 1959 Triumph Roadster, i.e. that part is supposed to fit but is off by 1/8 inch. BillB

All I can do is provide you what I have experienced in the past and done when restoring leather. 1. I prefer to use saddle soap as my cleaning agent. For me it is easier on the leather finish. I have not tried the Lexol product but it does sound like it removed the finish. 2. You should apply enough leather conditioner until the leather is supple (bends easily and hangs nicely. It should not be stiff unless it was intended to be stiff. 3. Since it sounds like the surface of the leather has been removed to some degree, you may need to refinish the surface. If the coloration was from normal aging of the leather (leather will naturally darken and depending on the type of leather and the tanning process that color can be from a dark chestnut to a light tan). You might try applying a light coating of brown/chestnut dye to the surface. I would find a hidden piece of leather and try a little there first to see how it comes out. You might also want to try yellow saddle soap since that will also add color to the surface. If you use saddle soap it also does a soft finish to the leather as you buff it dry. If you don't use saddle soap, a coat of mink oil and a good buffing should work. Since you did not mention what you used to apply the Lexol with or remove the dirt with, you should only be using a soft tooth brush to remove the dirt from the tooling grooves - NO WIRE BRUSH or STIFF BRUSH. When applying saddle soap or the mink oil, you should use a soft white polishing rag. If the grooves get filled with saddle soap, then use the soft tooth brush. Although leather is very durable, tooled leather, especially when wet, can be very temper mental. Remember, leather is skin and just like skin it can be damaged. I hope this helps. If you have any pictures (before, during and after) please post since they help us to understand where you are in the process. It also helps in any restoration process to have this set of pictures. I hope this helps. BillB

There are really only two ways to dye leather: 1. Surface dye with an air brush, wool piece, paint brush, etc.; 2. Saturation dye done by dipping the leather into and under the dye. Which one you use is determined by (in my opinion) on the end use of the product being made. If the product is going to get a lot of use and possible scratched, scrapped, etc. then a saturation process is recommend. That way when the surface of the leather is penetrated by a scratch it will still remain the color of the surface. Things like work chaps, sheaths, work holsters are examples of where is use a saturation dye process. If the item is only going to see light usage then surface dye is fine. Also if you are doing multiple colors, then a surface dye process is best. When I do a surface dye I use high quality artist brushes for oil paints. I do not use an air brush because my hands are not steady enough, I need the feel of the brush touching the surface. Since you are doing a brief case and messenger bag I would do the saturation dye process since these items tend to get heavy usage and banged around a lot. just my opinion. BillN

I would go with the Eco-flo Carnauba, but I would run a test with some scrap leather to make sure. Since this is a coffee table, it is more for protection from spills. As for adhesive, Moss Motors sells a spray adhesive that I used to adhere leather to a metal dashboard. It is like a super rubber cement. That was over five years ago and I have had no problem with any of the leather lifting and this includes all the curves and bends over the edges. I am sure that any high quality rubber cement would work fine. You should also burnish the edges since the upper edge would be where water infiltration would occur from spills. Just my thoughts if it was my project. BillB