Tugadude

I understood that. My comment was about the kits that many outlets sell where the holes are already provided. They tend to be round, and to me, that limits what can be done with them.

Holes have an impact on the finished look of stitching. Round holes, diamond-shaped holes and slits all can impact the final appearance. Along with the configuration of the hole (shape), the stitching technique has an impact. Nigel Armitage showed on a video that even with round holes it is possible to get a slight slant in your stitching. Using the proper technique of course. The holes do matter. And while on that subject, another thing that is sometimes mistaken is the technique used to sharpen awls. I'm sure there is difference of opinion, but most of what I've read and seen indicates that the point of the awl should be very sharp, but the remainder of the blade not so much. Polished is a better term, for the portion of the blade that extends from the tip and widens out. The idea being the awl is sharp so that penetration is made easy, but then after that the slit is stretched and not cut. This provides ample space for the thread and then the leather can close up around the thread. An awl blade which is sharp all the way around will slice the leather, creating a slit as wide as the awl itself is. That hole will remain and not close up as it would had it been stretched and not cut. Details matter, and this is one area that I think is sometimes misunderstood. Personally, I like very slanted stitching and I try to achieve that the best I can on both the front and the rear of my projects. There are techniques which can help, such as the "casting" technique. Another thing that affects the final result is the overall thickness of leather and the tension you put on the threads. I see some kits such as wallet kits that come pre-punched with round holes. Those tend to result in flat stitches, so they're not for me. I don't use kits anyway, but my point is regarding the round holes, not the fact it is a kit. Many here like to use stitching grooves and those also impact the final look. It can cause stitching to flatten out a little. Not saying it looks bad, it doesn't, but it just does. There are examples of this all over this forum if folks want to look. Hey, we're all supposed to be learning. I know I still am. And I hope to for a long time. Edit: I also should say that folks who want to see a number of stitching chisels and pricking irons in use should check out Nigel Armitage's videos on YouTube. He does a thorough review on all of the popular ones and you can clearly see the impact they all have on the finished stitch. Some are great, some are OK and there are things you can do to get the best out of all of them. I think he's done at least 20 different videos on chisels/irons. Here's a recent one.

The original poster was discussing chisels size as it relates to some specific project, a small EDC organizer. For that project, chisels make perfect sense. They will provide a quick solution and help to maintain straight lines with consistent stitches. After that, a person's taste will dictate what they prefer when it comes to spacing, thread size, color, etc. We all have a particular appearance that speaks to us. And they aren't all the same.

Chuck, there are some who turn their noses up at stitching chisels, perhaps not in this thread, but in others I've read. So that's what I am addressing with that comment. All tools have limitations and I have never said an awl is unnecessary, not by a long shot. I have several and when I need them, I use them. And they work great. I went back and read what I posted in this thread and I don't see any reason for someone to be offended. If I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize as that wasn't my intent.

I was talking to everyone. I was referring to the following, which is not completely accurate as I clearly showed. I don't mean any offense, but when people try to eliminate confusion and then make a statement that isn't true, then it isn't helping anyone. The subject of chisels, irons, pricking, stitching, etc. can be very confusing but doesn't need to be. That's why I asked that a "sticky" topic be placed in the area where sewing leather is discussed. I even invited Nigel Armitage, a well-known leatherworking expert to comment. The bottom line is there ARE companies who provide stitching chisels with slanted, flat teeth which are explicitly designed to penetrate fully through leather. And there are others who provide similar irons and caution against doing anything but marking leather with them. Anyways, please take my comments in the spirit in which they were intended. I'm not calling you or anyone out just because. What is frustrating is the misinformation that is spread on this and other forums by people who are "anti-chisel" and have never given them a chance. They are welcome to think whatever they want, but fairness is important. The fact is there are leather companies using chisels selling a lot of product and they have happy customers. Sounds good to me.

The same could be said about most anything. A Timex quartz watch is $20 and a Rolex many thousands. The Timex tells time better, has a stopwatch, an alarm, dual time zones, etc., etc. The Rolex also is going to cost thousands to maintain over the years. And yet people flock to buy them to the point some models have lead times that reach into years. If someone has the means, why shouldn't they buy whatever they want? The smaller makers do a lot of the work by hand, hence the higher cost. Sadly, some Chinese companies are beginning to copy their designs and selling them at a fraction of the cost. Are they as good? In some ways yes, in some ways maybe not. But they are cheap and serviceable. If cheap and serviceable is your jam, go for it! If you don't mind paying more for what you perceive as "worth it", then go for it!

It has already been established that the statement about pricking irons was wrong. Some are not made for piercing all the way through, but some are.

Those are great irons and the results speak for themselves. Kevin Lee is a solid choice.

There are "flat" slanted chisels which are intended to penetrate fully through the leather. This is just one example. It is from KS Blade Punch and gets great reviews. People should read the "sticky" topic I suggested in the "Sewing Leather" section. And this is the verbiage from their website. About KS Blade is a company that makes various leather craft tools such as stitching tools and punches for pleasure and convenience in making leather crafts. We respect craftsmanship and strive to incorporate that value into our tools. The KS Blade provides the best tools to help you bring the imagination to actual product. – Sharp blade of pricking irons allows to pierce straight through thick leather with little effort. It leaves clear slits in the leather that make natural stitching. You can customize the number of teeth and iron spacing. We provide maintenance service of replacing the blade in case it gets damaged.

That bike "bag" is one that I found with a quick search on the internet. What didn't jump out at me was the fact there is zero stitching involved. Personally, I don't see that as a good thing. I'd have wanted to stitch the flap at least. But hey, it shows how someone can complete a fully functional leather project without having to learn how to stitch. I guess that will appeal to some makers.

The Tandy Craftool Pro series irons are nice. I own two sets, the 2.5 and the 3.5mm. They are the diamond chisels and the only thing I wish was that they were a little more slanted and that the teeth were a tad narrower. There are some irons on the market that I suspect would be perfect for my taste, but I'm not in the mood to spend $200.00 when the ones I have work nearly as well. The ones from Tandy that bent were the black ones. You can bend the teeth back one time, then they want to crack and fall off. It is a shame, because otherwise they give a good result.

The most recent irons I purchased were the Aiskaer ones off of Amazon. For the price, the quality is ridiculously good. $9.99 and free shipping if you have Prime Plus. https://www.amazon.com/Aiskaer-Diamond-Lacing-Stitching-Leather/dp/B014549SNG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3GDG154QZX5W5&keywords=stitching+chisels&qid=1686580411&sprefix=stitching+chisels%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-5

Mine never have. I own some of the black ones which Tandy sells and the tines on those are prone to bending. One thing that helps is to make 100% sure that the chisel is plumb before striking it. Another is to avoid twisting the iron when removing it from the leather. I use a block of wood and pull straight up, and they release very easily that way. The other negative to twisting is that it enlarges the holes. The holes should only be large enough that you can easily pass the threads through. Too large isn't good. Tapping them down with a smooth-faced hammer helps, but it won't close up huge holes.

If the look appeals, there are tons of products where you can mix leather with other materials. The use of wood makes this bicycle bag much easier to make. Other than appearance, the wood will likely add weight to the product, so if that's a concern then it could be a drawback. But you could also "hollow out" the wood, leaving a wide perimeter and dishing the wood out towards the center, effectively eliminating a lot of the weight. If you have a lathe, it would be simple to do. I've also seen leather and wood used to construct wine bottle carriers and such.

No, but I just did. Interesting.

Last comment on this. Branding is something that you either get or you don't. You can purchase a great "polo" shirt at a discount store for $25.00 or a similar one with a genuine "Polo" , Ralph Lauren logo on it for 2 to 3 times the price. And then you hope someone notices it when you walk in the room. That is something that has always existed and always will. Call it "putting on airs" or what you will. But there are also genuine reasons why some folks are drawn to a brand. And they will often pay more for it. I do it myself. There are two, small "mom and pop" brands that I'm a big fan of. One is a soap company, the other is a watch company. I just dig the owners and what they are trying to do. They are growing their businesses while providing great value to their customers. Both are growing through repeat business and the word of mouth of happy customers. I can get the products cheaper elsewhere, but choose not to. Makes me feel good to be part of their success even if they don't notice me. I don't think I'm alone in this. Not everyone buys the cheapest stuff they can. At least not all the time, or for everything they buy. Not when it matters. Things only need to make sense to the consumer. There's lots of examples I could cite where I question why people do what they do. In the end it really doesn't matter. They'll keep on doing it regardless. Edit: This is really, really the last comment on this. When it comes to pricing, what are you competing with and what do you HOPE to be competing with? Are you just selling a leather wallet? Folks, especially the uneducated ones, can buy those all day long for pennies. Or are you selling your brand, which just happens to be on a wallet. There's a difference. Some will pay for the brand, even if it is on a lesser quality product. Because it has the brand. So when you market your goods are you building a brand, or are you just offering commodities, with no differentiation whatsoever? Your choice. Seems to me those who build a brand often yield greater profit margins.

I could be wrong but I don't think the sort of folks that will pay $175.00 for a leather belt are shopping at Harbor Freight. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I do think we need to be realistic. There's a fairly well-known leather wallet maker who apparently sells a lot of product and to me, the pricing is well above the value. I'm not going to give any more details because it isn't important who it is, just that it is an example. But, and there's always a but, he has cultivated a following of sorts, a customer base and he likely gets repeat business and word of mouth referrals. His product is certainly unique. I can imagine when you pull the wallet out, some will ask about it. I would never criticize him for his pricing. He makes a product, puts a price on it and then the consumer evaluates it and purchases it. Both are happy. Works for me. Now, if the person were to buy the product and find that it wasn't what they expected and/or they felt mislead or something, now we have a problem. That doesn't seem to be the case. There always are and will always be companies that successfully sell a product for way more than makes sense. Rolex is one, Hermes is another. Not picking on them, they just came to mind.

Made in the USA, to me anyway, simply signifies that it was made domestically. Doesn't necessarily mean it is of high quality or higher than any other country's production. In fact, there are products coming our of China which are of very high quality for much less than you can buy so-so goods here. I try not to buy them even if they are demonstrably better and certainly cheaper, because I don't support their regime. I own many American made knives. I bought a Kershaw knife a few years ago and could have purchased 3 or 4 Chinese knives for the same money. And they would have been arguably as good or better. I did it because it had an American flag on the blade and was made in the northwest U.S., and that's what was important to me. I'm not arguing that some do believe American made has the connotation of being better than, or high quality, but to me it doesn't. Sometimes it does. I went back to the website we're all talking about and my reaction is "meh". I don't think the wallets are anything special. I think the pockets could benefit from either creases and/or an edger. And the edges aren't up to snuff. The stitching is a personal pet peeve of mine. I don't care for some machine stitching, never have. The look of the stitching on a few products I looked at left me cold. One thing I often wonder when I see discussions like this is does the average consumer even do their homework? Do they take the time to peruse other maker's websites to compare quality and pricing? I wonder.

There's never an excuse for substandard work. I haven't bothered to look at all of the products on the website. I will go back and look before rendering my own opinion.

This is going to be wordy so if that isn't your thing, feel free to click away. I just want to give some examples and share what I've learned from decades in business. Not in leather, in construction chemicals, but I think there's a lot of similarity. Marketing is a complicated thing. The recent hiccups that major brands are having are an example. I looked at the website and I agree that it is a very professional, well executed domain. I also read the "about us" section which is at the bottom of the page. The company appears to be legitimate and located in the US and at least one of the products I clicked on did say US made, so I'll take that as being accurate. I think I talked about branding in another thread on this subject, but don't have time to look it up. Many here are into leatherworking but they have never been in business, at least not the sort where you are captain of your own ship. And probably very few have studied business and what it means to be profitable. Sales has been my career for nearly 40 years now. During that time I've worked for distributors and manufacturers and have seen the sales process from both sides. The two are similar but can be very different. For one thing, margins are much higher at the manufacturing level in my business. That isn't always the case, but it is often the case. The reason is the huge overhead that manufacturers have invested in producing their goods. I could list them, but you probably already are aware of most of them. I once had a customer's customer out to breakfast. He was a contractor who bought from one of my distributors, and my distributor wanted me to help him address pricing concerns. The contractor wanted to know why my product "was so high". In reality it really wasn't that much different from comparable brands, and some of the difference was in the markup at the distributor level. Still, the distributor felt that I might be able to help justify the state of affairs, and convince the customer that they weren't being exploited. I used what I call my "bucket analogy", because one of my key products was sold in 5 gallon pails. I asked the contractor to tell me what was in the bucket. He proceeded to list the ingredients, and he did a decent job, listing acrylic, water, silica aggregates and color pigments. I reminded him that there were also anti-microbial admixtures, UV resistant additives and other, expensive ingredients such as titanium dioxide. But, and this is the important part, I told him that there were a host of things in the bucket which he didn't even touch upon. I explained that my company's entire company was in the bucket, from our R&D lab to the wages paid to our warehousemen. The bucket held our marketing budget and that allowed us to reach both end users and designers such as architects and engineers. Without that there'd be less work, fewer opportunities for this contractor to bid on. Also in the bucket was our warranty department which stands behind product, even when oftentimes is was unclear whether it was the product at fault or not. There was also my salary in the bucket and I was the guy paying for breakfast! There's more, a lot more, but I wanted to get him to understand that the bucket sells for what it sells for, not simply due to what is in it, but for what got it there. The same is true for any product, even leather. Glitzy websites aren't cheap. Doing business online comes at a cost. Having a shop obviously comes at a cost. But even if you don't have a retail space, you probably will have rent to pay for a manufacturing space. If you work out of your garage you still have costs such as electricity, gas, etc. All of that has to be paid for from your product sales. In my case, at that time, I was representing one of the top two products in the industry. We'd argue about who was #1, but I was sure it was us. The contractor was comparing the price he was paying to the price offered by one of my distributor's competitors, who represented a lesser product. Demonstrably lesser, not even in the same league. I asked the contractor why he bought from my dealer. He said because they were more reliable, had product when he needed it and were able to deliver it with less hassle than "the other guy". So I asked him, with all due respect, how he thought my distributor was supposed to match pricing when they were so much better, clearly superior in every way. Inventory is very expensive. Contractors don't always plan ahead, so my dealer loaded up on product so they could still fulfil orders placed "at the last minute". That comes at a cost. Good drivers and reliable vehicles also come at a cost. I suggested that wanting the best product along with the best service demanded an upcharge over an inferior product delivered with subpar service. He had to agree. He said he never thought of it that way and that he was appreciative of everything we both (distributor and manufacturer) had to offer. So why explain all of that? Because even with all of the sales seminars I have attended over the years, and they have been many, that morning still sticks out as one of the best examples of how to justify price. The company that's been discussed has set their pricing. None of us know exactly how they arrived at it. We have ideas, but we don't know exactly. I only know as much as I can glean from their website. What I can say is they are trying to appeal to a certain customer. If you look at some of the language and the fact they mention "carbon neutral shipping", it is clear that they are hoping to appeal to a niche audience. One way to look at it is, hey, if they can sell at that level, then maybe you can justify raising your own prices a little. And do it with justification. Does your belt contain your advertising costs, insurance, inventory, wage increases, etc.? If not, it should. How else are you going to pay for those things? One last thing, and I'll keep it brief for those who have hung in there so far, I once had a "heart-to-heart" with a fledgling contractor. This contractor was essentially a couple of wide-eyed tradesmen who decided to quit their jobs and "be their own bosses". They wanted to take what they had learned, working for an established and respected, profitable contractor, and strike out on their own. No problem, that happens all of the time. Except they had zero experience in actually running a business. They were good at their trade, some of the best, but that doesn't make you a boss. That doesn't create in yourself the knowledge of how to run a business and achieve profitability. Not at all. I asked them when they were going to stop "working for wages", and they looked at me quizzically, not understanding. I told them they were taking work too cheaply and getting in way too deep. I asked them how they were going to pay for their office space and what was going to happen should a truck break down or a mixer go kaput. They finally understood. They realized they were their own bosses now but at the end of the day they really weren't making any more money and had way more headaches as compared to working in the field. Suddenly they understood why things were the way they were when they worked for someone else. Some say "be careful what you wish for" because you might not know what it really is that you're asking. I say go ahead and wish all you want, that's how skyscrapers are built, just keep your eyes open and never stop learning. Don't know that this answers why pricing is the way it is, but hopefully I showed that there's a lot more that goes into it than meets the eye. Leather and labor are only the beginning.

If I need to do that I use an awl, works just fine.

Very nice. Projects of this sort have become very popular. EDC is a major market that leatherworkers can focus on. Glad you shared this with us.

Bruce, we are truly blessed to have folks like yourself, willing to share their wisdom on this forum. It is one of the reasons I keep coming back. Most of us are here because we love the craft and love sharing that love with likeminded people. Some of us make money, but many probably never will. But all of us can learn from experienced and passionate people like you. Thanks Bruce!

Welcome! I also share your interest in watches. If you haven't yet, check out longislandwatch.com. The owner, Marc, is a great guy. And he offers lots of value for the money.