Shelly

Should be - I have core material that was graded/sorted, and trimmed to length, from Luis Ortega's stock, to use in them!

If I can ever get all my repair work and the orders done, I plan to start on a nice pair of 12 plait roo romal reins - will have a carved/stitched/lined popper, 12 plait on the rein body, and 24 plait on the romal, with rawhide knots. the knots will have an interweave pattern - will probably dye the rawhide string I use, most likely will use coffee grounds or walnut hulls to make the dye.

Thanks for the compliments - I'll be braiding up a bosal for an overseas client soon. It will have a mane hair rope, braiding on popper and knot to match the bosal, and a backbraided hanger...

Yep, these have to be custom made - I'm a braider, saddlemaker, tooler - if you want to discuss having a carved popper made, let me know....I have a few different patterns for romal poppers, and I can line and stitch the popper - my Landis 3 is set up to stitch 6 stitches to the inch - will make a pretty popper! You can visit my website - www.liggettenterprises.com, my contact info is there if interested...

I'd be very interested to hear from Steve on this - all I know is I have less frustration doing it as I've always done - and a lot less time invested messing with the guages...I might be tempted to use them a lot more if I did more straight up cantles...the more room you have, the easier they are to use, but, as I said, mine don't go the full half of the cantle, from the center back to the point of the cantle - also, these guages are flat - haven't had a lot of luck being able to follow the curve around the base of the cantle, as well as the curve that you have from the center to the point, to accomodate the shape of the skirt and bars, etc. The frustrations come from the fact that I can't 'bend' the guage to follow that curve, while the rest of the guage is being set to the curve it has to follow to allow the backhousing to fit snugly around the back of the cantle...I think, possibly, one of those flexible deals you find in an art store to make freeform curves and such, might actually work better, if you can bend it in more than one direction? Then again, you have to take that form, and transfer it's shape from the cantle back to the leather on the flat of the bench, the compound curves don't always play nice when you have to try to make that work on a piece of leather that is now flat on the bench...I have found I still need to handfit the darn things to get what I want, so find it easier to just rough cut the curve, (I have a couple patterns that I use to block out, so use that curve to start with), then fit and will mark and trim out a little at a time until I have them fitting as I want...I'd be interested if there is a better way to skin a cat, and make the process a little quicker and easier! In the meantime, I'll get along as I do!! SL Shelly, Sounds like you are doing what I have been. I'm kinda frustrated with it, and hoped this was the 'easy way out.' Conceptually the contour guage would be perfect... I'm hearing you say application is different than theory!?! I'll give it a try and see if I have any luck.

I have two contour guages - a plastic one, and a metal one...tried to use both at various times for the back of the cantles, in order to transfer to the backhousing....both are just not workable for me, for what I do. I have a 3 or 3 1/2 inch cantle, a cheyenne roll, and these things just don't cooperate well in tight spaces (plus, the ones I have don't go completely around from the center of the cantle to the point, so I have to hand fit them, regardless!). Possibly someone else that uses them alot can enlighten me about them, but I can be a lot quicker with my trimming by just eye-balling it, and trimming out a little at a time, refitting, etc. Only takes me a few times to get the trim where I want it, in order to have the housing tight. (I start with a rough cut for the cantle on the backhousings, tie them together about a 1/4 inch from the edge at the back, so I can spike them both into position for the final fit) Once they are spiked into position, I will lay out my final lines for them, following the skirt lines and corners, and making sure the backhousings cover the rear riggings, if I have them, or, if there is a slot in the skirt for the billets, I'll mark each one however many inches up from the bottom edge of the skirt - I never fit one, flip it over on the other, and just cut on the line...seems that no matter how well you fit everything together, I have rarely had them be exactly alike, and I want them to look as uniform as possible to the eye, on the saddle, not the bench. I think these guages can work with higher cantles, with possibly pencil rolled cantle binders, or straight up cantles without a cheyenne roll. Just my experience with this stuff, and I may not have figured out the best approach to the use of the guages...and, I've never found that I can get a nice, tight fit, with the outside edges of the backhousing 'tight and snappy' to the skirts, if the backhousings are fit exactly to the cantle. I have to trim a little deeper as the cantle comes around to the points, leaving a little larger space, but still the same shape, so, once it's spiked into place, it will put the correct tension on the backhousing to fit like I want it to. Another thing you have to consider is to trim a little more off the outside edges if you are basket stamping or floral carving, as the housings can stretch a bit, and then your lines won't match...I haven't always figured that as well as I've liked, and I amd a little unsatisfied about it when it's buttoned up. I try not to beat myself up about it, just to do better next time...taping the back of the housings does help a little, but not always...! I'd be very interested to hear from anyone that uses them religiously and really likes the results...a tutorial would be interesting?! Maybe I'll learn a better method to use them, and they won't lay on the bench gathering dust!! I'll make you a deal on my guages if you want 'em!! Shelly

I'll try to find the original file - this one was altered, and the only one on this computer! Sorry!

This is a headstall I made, stamped, and braided, for the WTRHA to raffle off to raise funds for their reining assoc. Tickets are $5 ea or 5 for $20...they've already sold a bunch!

I scanned these, rather than took a pic, which is why they are in two sections! Another chap top for a reiner customer's shotgun chaps - his chaps will have a twisted fringe when done...will take pix of all and post when finished.

Here is a chap top I've just finished for some shotgun chaps for one of my customers...

First things first - when I used to use Salz Latigo for braiding, many, many, years ago, you don't cut latigo in circles for string, as you do roohide. Latigo is best cut in a straight edge cut, off the back edge of the hide, where the leather is the best. The belly can be used for other stuff. Now, the reason I don't use latigos any longer - once you cut it down to small string, and then split it's thickness down to what is proper, you have very little strength left in the string. Braids fine, as long as you are really careful when tightening...which is still no guarantee that it won't break at a critical moment. I used it in latigo bosals, and had the air turn blue when I was tightening that last strand thru the nosebutton, to have it snap! Next thing - latigo has a lot of oils/waxes in it, so you should not have to wet it, or stretch it, etc. I would cut 2" strips from my straight edge off the back of the hide, split down these strips to take down the thickness before starting to cut string. You will have an easier time of it if the latigo is not thicker than it is wide, because it's nature is to roll as you describe. Anything below 3/32" is pretty much asking for trouble with latigo. The only latigo I know of that is anything like the old Poach and Peterson or Salz latigos is sold by Sheridan Outfitters, in Sheridan WY. I use an Osborn 86 for splitting, but a Krebs or Keystone splitter would be excellent choices for this as well. The blades are wide enough to split wide strips down, before you start cutting your lace off the strips. Your longest strings are going to be 8 or 9 ft long doing it this way. I used a Hanson string cutter for years, sold it because there was no way to regulate the same thickness on the splitter portion of the machine, other than to keep a length of string that was the thickness I needed, and set the roller by that - a real pain! Another thing that helps is to cut the strings for width with the grain side down, then, split the strings to about the final thickness you want them, then bevel, and, sometimes, I would then level it again, just to take the 'peak' off the center of the strand. You mention that you are wetting the hide also - don't. Leather stretches when it's wet, and latigo will already have lost tensile strength when you split it - so, the smaller the width of the strand, the worse the breakage when it's wet. If you insist on wetting it, it would need to be cased, just like casing veg tan leather for carving/tooling, or casing rawhide for cutting into strings. Anything that is too 'wet' when cutting, turns to mush, and it won't matter how sharp your injector blades are! But, you should not have to wet good latigo to begin with! So, the reason I went to burgundy colored roohide, was mostly because it's tensile strength is so much more than latigo, and because I don't have the amount of leveling to do to a string - the less you have to remove from the back of your strings, the better... And, because of the size of a roohide, and the nature of the animal's skin, you make a circle and cut your thong from this, and your final strings from that - Sheridan Outfitters is about the only source I know that sells large hides of drum-stuffed, or 'oily' roo - every other supplier over the years has got to the point that hides are smaller and smaller, and more and more expensive! They will give you the best 'bang for your buck' in both roo and latigo...also, try to stay away from the roo skins that are chrome-tanned - the kind used in shoe/bootmaking. They are not easy to work with, and are usually pretty thin - you want the drum-stuffed because you can get a heavier hide to work, bigger, and the colors are thruout the hide, not just on the surface. The oily/waxy feel from these hides is what allows them to cut so easily as well. The 'dry' hides will dull your blades super fast, and just not cut worth a darn anyway. Any 8 strand plait will come out square unless you use a core. I live in Mineral Wells, TX - if you are in the area, I'd be happy to help you - just bring the materials you are working with, and I will show you what and how I work latigo string...just don't bring the hide already cut into circles, wet, etc! Next - I purchase injector blades 1000 at a time - from American Cutting Edge, 480 Congress Park Drive, Centerville, OH, 45459 - (937)438-2390. Item number 1-015004. They run .18 cents each, so total of the invoice, with shipping, on my last order, was $194.44. These will last me for the next year or so, as I use them for my skivers as well as my string cutter. Hope this helps...! If you would like to see some of the work I do, as well as some of the horses we raise, train, and show (reiners), go to www.liggettenterprises.com

I stand corrected - I thought about it a minute - had a 'duh' moment, and thought, 'I knew that'...must be getting some senility in my old age! Nice video!

I would expect that if this lace is from spooled stuff, you are going to run into this issue - you will also not get chrome tanned roo to cut and bevel worth a darn. The only roo I use is drum-stuffed, which makes it feel 'oily'. (and, no, you can't take chrome tan and oil it and get the same thing) The drum stuffed, oily hides used to come in a wide range of color, from Packer-Tanners in Queensland, AU. Over the years, the hides have gotten smaller, (I think I had an aussie tell me that they aren't killing as many of the big gray roos, that these smaller hides are from the red roos), and, the color selection has gotten smaller. I use a stainless steel cylinder with three different angles, for cutting and beveling string. (I use a bench splitter for leveling the string) The stainless doesn't leave black marks on damp rawhide. I use stainless steel injector blades for cutting - but, I have found I like the old strap cutter blades better, as they are a little stouter, not as long, so you can't use as much blade surface, but they don't have the tendency to bend with heavier string, like the injector blades do. Injector blades are great for lighter string, tho. The old strap cutter blades had a small hole in the center, and were used for the wooden strap cutters.. I got away from using anything on spools, as it was dry, hard, and, I always reworked the darn stuff anyway - so, makes more sense to make my own string! You might try taking the string off the spool, use a tub of liquid saddle soap, and let that soak up some of that - pull it thru a rag to take off the excess, wrap it in some paper towels, and put it in a tupperware tub, still wrapped toweling. the paper towels will keep the moisture from beading on the string, and the tupperware will keep the humidity consistent. Should not be limp wet when trying to bevel - should have a firm feel, but sort of like tooling leather that is properly cased... Don't know if I'm any help! Michelle Liggett www.liggettenterprises.com

I assume from the sound of the post that you are wanting a pattern made of things like spur straps, etc, that you can lay on leather, trace around, and then use a round knife to cut the piece out of the leather. My suggestion is to find a company, usually a company that does awards, etc, that has a laser - the computer will take your line drawing, and render it for the laser to cut. They can set the laser to whatever depth, including cutting out designs - they also should have various types of plastic, from flexible to hard, that would work for the pattern you want. An example of a need for a flexible pattern would be a saddle seat inlay shape, for various seat lengths, that can be put into the position on the seat on the saddle, and then traced, so you can cut it out. A firm plastic would be good for any patterns that you will just lay out on leather that is laid flat on your table, and doesn't need to conform to a shape, such as a finished saddle seat...

Awe, I love ya, Bob! Great read - I am sure you get some of those same 'looks' I get when trying to explain the difference...no one home! Some just never do learn to appreciate or 'see' the things that make it what it is...I've tried to spot those that my gut tells me that no amount of explanation will be necessary because it's wasted breath!

Just so you know - I'm not upset with you! I just wanted to be sure to clarify exactly what this man is actually doing with our pictures...

Thanks for the link, Ben!

I understand what you are saying here, and agree that it could be hard to prosecute for photos copied that aren't copyrighted, etc...but, I think that, in skimming the thread here, that you have missed a few important elements - Louis took my photo a few years ago, (it's the reining saddle in the pic that was listed above, along with the unknown maker's Wade) - he listed it on EBay - I saw it, read it thoroughly, before acting - he was selling the saddle in the pic, as his, in his possession - this was a custom order that I knew for a fact was not in his possession...so what do you tell the people that had bids on that saddle when they don't get the saddle they think they are purchasing? The image wasn't large enough to get a clear view of the makers stamp, so buyers weren't aware that this was not his work or his saddle...and nowhere did he say 'selling a saddle LIKE this one...'. If I were a buyer, I would think I was buying the saddle in that photo. That is outright fraud...the saddle was not a stolen saddle, just a stolen image, that he was 'selling'...I have no idea what the buyers would get when the auction ended, and they opened that box on the other end of the transaction, but it sure wasn't what he said he was selling! This is the same thing that has happened to Steve, this guy is not using these images on Ebay as 'selling a saddle like this one' - buyers think they are buying THAT saddle in the image - so Steve is justifiable in his anger, as I was, when we knew that this guy did not have these saddles in his possession to sell to anyone! So, there is a huge difference in just 'borrowing' an image, and taking bids on a saddle that you don't even own, representing the image as your own work, and ready to deliver! I'm sure if Ebay or any of the lawyers involved wanted real proof, Steve and I probably have a large number of pix on our hard drives that we can show the maker's stamp clearly - along with the background, etc, that would prove beyond any doubt that the saddles were made in our shops (I take pix as I build them for my customers, so they can see how their saddles come together)...I don't see how Louis can sit there and truly believe that there is no way that we would recognize an photo of a saddle we made, that we took pictures of, edited those pictures of, and saved those pix in files...I am looking into a copyright/watermark for my pix, etc.

Ouch!! But very well said!!! And I don't think we are making very good journeyman's wages with what we all are charging right now, either!! Get an electrician, plumber, etc out to do some work sometime...

Just so everyone knows what happened to me - this pic of the reining saddle I made for one of my customers was posted by Louis on Ebay some time back - I was alerted to this by a friend that recognized my work. The saddle was listed as having been made by Louis, and was for sale on the auction, and had already had a number of bids on it. So, I turned the whole thing in to the powers that be on Ebay...figuring the matter solved. Anyway, since Louis lives here in Texas, and I do as well, I will probably talk to my lawyer about what I can do about what has already been done to me...I think it will be even easier to deal with fraud when it doesn't cross state lines...but, then again, doesn't this become a federal matter when it does cross state lines?? I have also had sellers on Ebay use links to my website as proof that used saddles they were selling were made by me - because one of these factory saddles had a makers stamp of 'MJ' on it...I had a nice conversation with the girl that purchased said saddle on the auction, as she had gone to my site, was thrilled at the workmanship she saw there, thinking this saddle would be great for what she was going to do with it, even tho it was older. I assured here that one glance at the first pic was all I needed to tell her 'no, not mine'...she promptly sent off an email to the seller to tell her the good news, and the seller sent me a scathing email about the whole affair! I sent her an email that basically invited her to discuss her problems with my lawyer, as she was, at the very least, misrepresenting her items for sale, at the most, she was defaming my character and reputation! And I told her she should do a little more research, and she very well could have sent me a note and a few pix, just as her buyer did, to verify whether that saddle was something I made or not - just taking it for granted doesn't fly! My daddy always told me...."If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and acts like a duck...." you get the picture! Louis can apologize all he wants, but he's been at this for quite some time, and I'm sure his remorse is more for being caught with his pants down, than because he truly is sorry about his actions!!

The wade is not from my site, but I'd bet everything I own that Louis did not build it! I had some of Chuck Treon's saddles on my used saddle listings, and thought maybe he'd taken a Wade pic from that area, but this is not one of Chucks - I'd like to know who made it as well...?