Testing Ones Patience

[Handstitched]

I currently have a customer that ordered some belts, two for himself and one with 'wording' as a Christmas present. I asked him the measurements ( you can see where this is heading) , and he told me. I made the belts , I sent them , he received . He then phones me up to say they are too long.  WTF  ???  I made them exactly according to the measurements  that were given ( and exactly how I was taught). I asked him how he got the measurements. From an old belt...tip to tip  , buckle to the pointy end  

I told him that is the incorrect way to measure a belt, but he argued the point, " but I've always measured my belts that way" . This went on for a while, back & forth . I then sent him a text with a pic from one of Al Stohlmans books on how to correctly  measure for a belt, to the centre hole.  I also explained that this is how leather workers like myself all over  the world  measure a belt for correct and comfortable fitting, and also making allowances for trophy type buckles etc etc. I explained all this ...nup, still wouldn't have it. 

I feel a bit insulted.  Everything I have learned is down to the many books I have read by other master craftsmen  and of course  master craftsmen like Al  & Anne Stohlman,  and indeed from the many  helpful people  on this site. 

To my annoyance, I'll be making them again, but he'll be returning the others .   Only THIS time, he got a tape measure and measured his waist.....the correct way.  Thank f***k for that !!!!!! Wonders will never cease !!

HS 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Handstitched

[Klara]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm with your customer here! I didn't know how leatherworkers measure belts until I took up the hobby. When "normal people" measure an item's length, they measure end-to-end. 

In order to avoid the problem in future, send your customers measuring instructions. Something like "from the current belt's most often used hole (not necessarily the center hole if the current belt is getting small) to the inside of the buckle". I'm not happy with the second half, but trying to account for different buckle sizes...

Of course one could in theory measure waist size - except that many trousers don't go up to the waist, and you can't use the normal (naked) waist measurement either, and...

Incidentally, that kind of problem is why I don't like buying online and even less having things made to measure.

 

 

 

[Handstitched]

3 minutes ago, Klara said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm with your customer here! I didn't know how leatherworkers measure belts until I took up the hobby

Thats OK, I doubt you're the only one.And  I guess I should have mentioned ,  this particular customer has bought from me in the past,  I made custom belts for him with business name on them,  and when I  made his belts...way back when, I used a tape measure to measure his waist , and,  like I have told  him and countless customers , ' all measurements go from the 3rd hole back or centre hole. '. 

I wish I had a dollar for every time I  said it, and  I guess after  almost 18 years,  I'd have quite a bit saved up   by now , almost enough to retire on...maybe   

 Retire?? Give up leather work???....mmmmnah  

Also,  my Mother, being a seamstress by trade  since I was a kid , also knows all about taking measurements . 

HS

 

[Danne]

I'm sorry, but you can't assume that the customer will know how to properly measure a belt. You have to make sure he understand and get the correct length.

Let's say a customer would contact me to buy a watch strap, and I ask him for the lug width and strap length. He tell me his old strap is stamped 20mm and 115-80mm, and he would like a taper. So I make him a 20-18mm strap in the lengths 115-80mm.

After he received his strap he contact me and tell me it's impossible to attach the strap, even though it has quick release spring bars, but it's not enough space between the spring bar holes and the watch case. And he send me a photo. He have a F.P. Journe watch, and it requires a strap that is curved at the lugs, and also need curved spring bars. Who did the mistake here? I did. 

Of course in my example with watch straps, even if I know what watch they have I might be able to find out that there is a short lug distance (distance between case and spring bar) but I know a regular strap fits (a curved strap would increase the gap) then I might have to tell the customer, I can make this type of strap in this leather to fit a watch with a clearance of 1mm, but I can't find information to be certain if it will fit your watch. In this situation, the customer can decide what they want to do, find the information, measure the gap, or just hope it fits. OR I can send them a small piece of leather that is 1mm in thickness and they can try if it fits between the spring bar and case. Communication is really important. 

Ps. I do understand your frustration though, I don't sell anything yet. And I'm sure I will end up in similar situations, like where a customer have bought from me before, and then he/she knew the dimensions, and all of a sudden they forget to mention something, and I didn't ask. But I still think I have to make a new product in that case. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Danne

[chuck123wapati]

my son wanted a belt last month. I said measure your waist just like you want to wear the belt and send the buckle . He did, sent me the number and buckle, I made the belt. Hey dad its a little big can you shorten it!!!

[Danne]

2 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

my son wanted a belt last month. I said measure your waist just like you want to wear the belt and send the buckle . He did, sent me the number and buckle, I made the belt. Hey dad its a little big can you shorten it!!!

Tell him "It will last you a lifetime, and as you gets older the belt becomes shorter, just like jeans tend to shrink with age, especially after holidays :D"

[Klara]

22 hours ago, Handstitched said:

I guess I should have mentioned ,  this particular customer has bought from me in the past,  I made custom belts for him with business name on them,  and when I  made his belts...way back when, I used a tape measure to measure his waist , and,  like I have told  him and countless customers , ' all measurements go from the 3rd hole back or centre hole. '. 

Yes, that justifies your frustration a bit more. Only a bit, because "way back when" sounds like a long time and memories are short ;) . But frankly, I have come to the conclusion that some bespoke items are priced so very high because satisfaction is guaranteed  - in other words, adjusting or remaking the item is figured into the price. I never dared do that, and I've always hated custom work... (even though it's the way to go)

Btw, an ex-colleague who makes belts sells them on markets, mostly to the user, and cuts them to size and makes the holes when selling them. Of course, no edge paint or burnishing. So I have one belt made for me - and it's become too long!

 

 

 

[Handstitched]

@Klara The customer picked his belts up finally , with correct sizing, but get this, he told me he  once did leather work himself as a trade in his earlier days,  traveling around various venues selling his wares,so I would have thought he would have  known how to measure a belt.  ( he's a pest control operator now ) 

So, I'm guessing he was  measuring his belts incorrectly the whole time he was making leather goods ...wha....?? 

 I now feel a sense of ' vindication '  

HS

Edited December 20, 2022 by Handstitched

[Dwight]

  My two belt problems were one (a gift) required the name on it . . . Ephan . .. we went thru the spelling twice as I recall . . . 

Yep . . . the name was Ethan .  . . and I'm still looking for a kid named Ephan . . . I can make him a deal on a belt I've got hanging in my shop.

The other one was a guy wanted .38 belt loops in his every day belt . . . 

I made it . . . and about a year later . . . re-made it . . . without the loops . . . as it turned out to be a problem for him he had to take out the cartridges every time he changed pants . . . them put them back in.

Live and learn.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Klara]

1 hour ago, Handstitched said:

So, I'm guessing he was  measuring his belts incorrectly the whole time he was making leather goods ...wha....?? 

Self-taught and never read a book?

[Handstitched]

2 hours ago, Klara said:

Self-taught and never read a book?

Yeh, amazing things eh ? ...books  

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

Yep . . . the name was Ethan .  . . and I'm still looking for a kid named Ephan . . . I can make him a deal on a belt I've got hanging in my shop.

I have a possible solution. see pic. Underneath the tooled leather piece is a ' mistook' , so using my creativity, and not wanting to waste a belt, thats what I did .

Tooled, dyed and sewed a piece  over the ' mistook' . Didn't take long to sell either  , and I charged a bit for it to make up for the  ' mistook' .  Just a thought    

I have done that a few times to cover up stuff up's . 

HS 

[Dwight]

Good Idea . . . but it is a little 1 inch belt for a child . . . I think he was maybe 7 yrs old.

There was enough value in the lesson I got to more than make up for the loss of leather and time.

But I do like your idea . . . if I ever start going back to the shows . . . Ephan may go with me . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

[Handstitched]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:24 PM, Dwight said:

Good Idea . . . but it is a little 1 inch belt for a child . . . I think he was maybe 7 yrs old.

I'm sure you can come up with a creative solution, even for a childs belt...with a ' mistook' .

Croc leather piece, or coloured leather, or  whatever you have in stock, be creative . Or, cut it into 3 pieces, put  ' D' rings  between each piece and a buckle at one end and a billet at the other , that extends the length . I make 3 piece belts all the time to use up  sizable off cuts.  I tool them or put studs etc. on them , I can really  go a bit silly and have fun  on some off cuts .  They sell  

' Mistooks'  help concentrate the mind IMO     

HS

[GrampaJoel]

The very last belts I made for a person were as gifts.

 Because I no longer charge folks, even for my time and cost. It’s a hobby. 
but I measured him myself twice. Then I measured his belt he was wearing.
And then  I made two belts for him.

He insisted they have a leather piece on the buckle, just like the one he was currently wearing. It was so strange.

a few weeks later after I gave him the belts,  I saw him again, and I ask him why he wasn’t wearing one of the belts I had made for him.

He said he was saving them for his boys when they grow up. They are 12 and 9 now.???

he didn’t say if  they were to big, or to small.

my take is he just didn’t like them.

so ya just never know.
I don’t make things for people when they ask anymore. I just got tired of people wanting something made and then not getting what they expected in their minds. Something ‘factory/production’ made.

I make what I like and if someone likes it I give it to them.

Joel

[Danne]

1 hour ago, GrampaJoel said:

The very last belts I made for a person were as gifts.

 Because I no longer charge folks, even for my time and cost. It’s a hobby. 
but I measured him myself twice. Then I measured his belt he was wearing.
And then  I made two belts for him.

He insisted they have a leather piece on the buckle, just like the one he was currently wearing. It was so strange.

a few weeks later after I gave him the belts,  I saw him again, and I ask him why he wasn’t wearing one of the belts I had made for him.

He said he was saving them for his boys when they grow up. They are 12 and 9 now.???

he didn’t say if  they were to big, or to small.

my take is he just didn’t like them.

so ya just never know.
I don’t make things for people when they ask anymore. I just got tired of people wanting something made and then not getting what they expected in their minds. Something ‘factory/production’ made.

I make what I like and if someone likes it I give it to them.

Joel

Looks awesome, I have never made a belt, and I prefer black belts, one of those in black and without that leather thing on the buckle, and I would wear that belt for the rest of my life. 

[Klara]

5 hours ago, GrampaJoel said:

The very last belts I made for a person were as gifts.

 ...

my take is he just didn’t like them

....

I don’t make things for people when they ask anymore. ...

 

That was one of the reasons I sold my knitting, which was not made to measure. If somebody bought it, I was reasonably sure that they liked it (and if not, I at least had the money). I didn't want to be the aunt who smothers her relatives in woolen things they don't like (for I had knitted a scarf for my sister which she didn't wear...) Of course then I found out that I didn't want to work for cents per hour, either... 

[ramrod]

On 12/4/2022 at 5:35 AM, Danne said:

. ........He have a F.P. Journe watch, and it requires a strap that is curved at the lugs, and also need curved spring bars. Who did the mistake here? I did. 

In my opinion, you get a pass here. If this customer owns an F.P.Journe watch, he should know enough about an extremely high end watch to know it takes a curved spring bar. That should have been mentioned by him when he asked you to make the strap. 

Just my opinion. 

[bruce johnson]

Frankly, I always found the "measure from the fold to the middle hole, add some arbitrary number and that's your length" confusing for customers. Secondly there is the pants waist size method people that add so much to a waist size. Then there are the "belt size factory stamp" method folks where you are supposed to buy an off the rack western belt 2 numbers up from your pants size (buy a size 34 belt if you wear a 32" waist). These numbers didn't mean anything even between some different makers. When I got to doing semi-production belts with remote customers my sellers and I fell into a pretty simple system.

For straight strap, non tapered belts we would ask the customer to only to measure the total length from the fold to the tip. If they wanted a longer tip exposed or tip initials, add on that measurement. If they want a shorter tip than what they wore to measure, ask them how much shorter for the total length. That is all you need - total length of the strap from the fold. The whole buckle type is not a factor for length ever and should not add any confusion. Make your belt that length.  

Measure now from fold to where the tip overlaps the fold. all the customer needs to do is mark that and measure. You use that length for the base line for punching. If you go by the length from the tip on charts, then you can be off. The fashion customer with the long tip will be punched too long, the guy who wants a shorter tip  will be too short. 

Buckle type only comes into play with punching the holes back from the baseline. Trophy buckle, heel bar, or centerbar buckles - punch the main hole the length of the buckle reach from bar to tongue. You can place other holes the spacing you like. Realistically - we found most people wanted one hole shorter and two holes longer. If it is custom ask them how many holes they'd like.  Some trophy buckles have a simple post tongue and longer reach, some have a reverse tongue on a tab and that reach is about a like a heel bar buckle. 

A few things we found. Universally when asked and given the option for hole numbers and spacing, most people didn't realize that was even an option. Most did not want big spacing (1") and rarely did anyone want their main hole in the center. Big spacing and putting on a tucked sweater on a factory belt and they were in the last hole with four holes showing back a long ways. Vanity thing but true. They wanted one hole to snug up if they weren't tucking a shirt. They wanted one for regular wear and one more for thicker clothing - nobody admitted to allowing for weight gain even though that's obviously a factor. We did a lot of three hole 3/4" spaced belts and rarely a five. We also did a lot of belts with no holes and the seller punched the holes custom for buyer at pickup. Nice touch and customer service they didn't get at the last place. 

[HandyDave]

After makin a few belts over because my lack of questions early on. Now i ask probably way to many questions before i cut leather for any job. Belts i ask for current pant size which can be baggy or tight or an old pair of pants that has naturally stretched a few sizes so not best question but helps. Then i ask them to measure there current belt from end of buckle to the hole they mostly wear belt in. I also ask for a pic if possible of current belt with tape measure layin beside of it from end to end. Everybody has a phone or camera these days so a pic is great. Havent had 1 wrong size belt since askin for a pic of belt next to tape measure. I mostly do reinforced edc belts so they usually have a little more wiggle room anyway to allow for owb carry or iwb carry along with tucked or untucked shirt styles.

[GrampaJoel]

On 12/25/2022 at 10:48 AM, bruce johnson said:

. Big spacing and putting on a tucked sweater on a factory belt and they were in the last hole with four holes showing back a long ways. Vanity thing but true. They wanted one hole to snug up if they weren't tucking a shirt. They wanted one for regular wear and one more for thicker clothing - nobody admitted to allowing for weight gain even though that's obviously a factor. We did a lot of three hole 3/4" spaced belts and rarely a five. We also did a lot of belts with no holes and the seller punched the holes custom for buyer at pickup. Nice touch and customer service they didn't get at the last place. 

I understand the hole thing on leather belts from a personal experience. Either to tight or to loose. Really never just right.

I quit wearing leather belts about 10 yrs ago. Because of the constant not fitting in the hole thing. 
I wear a ratchet style gun belt these days . Because it can be adjusted with a simple push of the belt in 1/4” increments. To tight? A little lever at the buckle releases the tension.

My feelings are that custom made goods, of any material, seldom are truly 100% ,,what the customer has visioned in their minds.

that’s why I won’t do them anymore.

I make it, and if someone likes it. It’s theirs.
Of course the caveat is,,, I’m not trying to earn income from my leather work anymore.

best wishes

Joel