A beginner's lesson learned about leather

[Schick]

It seems I need to learn more about leather types before I make more leather purchases.

 

I made a rookie mistake. I assumed that chrome tanned leather is all real leather.  I realise too late, that I purchased a product that is chrome tanned, but likely embossed with poly urethane for a grainy look. Sadly PU will just come apart after a while. I don't blame Tandy, as I suppose I should be an educated shopper. So now I wasted the money, and need to buy real leather. Kind of angry about it, but I will take this as a valuable lesson learned.

I don't think I would mind a leather stamped (embossed?) with a nice texture for the stuff I want to create as long as it is not poly coated. Some finishes might look good for a watch strap.

For anyone interested, it is product 9832-25. I don't think the Tandy website is searchable by SKU number.

[nstarleather]

Hi Schick!

Please post the picture here.  I believe we already saw it:

z9297at9x28a1.jpg.webp

Everyone here will agree on the same the we said on Reddit.  Chrome Tan is real leather and that is real leather but it's a low quality leather called a PU split.  It's a cheap suede covered with Polyurethane.  It's obvious from the back of the leather that it's not faux or bonded as those would have much more uniform backs.   The fuzzy aspect assures me it's cheap suede covered in PU.

[Dwight]

Sometimes a lesson is actually a blessing in disguise . . . 

I bought some good leather from Weavers . . . and we had a good relationship until the last time.

Someone should have given the cow her hide back . . . I would have if I could have.

BUT . . . I hung on to it . . . knowing one day there would be a need that I could put that garbage to work in . . . and it would work very well when I found it.

Yep . . . had a special job come up where the leather just had to be leather . . . nothing fancy . . . no special requirements.  I did the job  . . .  it was a very good project as far as the build and final look was concerned . . . buyer was ecstatic . . . 

My lesson simply is Weaver will never get another dime of my money . . . and I used to really enjoy the drive to their shop . . . wandered thru the retail store . . . saw all the new gadgets . . . probably never again . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

[Simplejack1985]

Buy once cry once

[Schick]

58 minutes ago, nstarleather said:

Hi Schick!

Please post the picture here.  I believe we already saw it:

z9297at9x28a1.jpg.webp 219.37 kB · 1 download

Everyone here will agree on the same the we said on Reddit.  Chrome Tan is real leather and that is real leather but it's a low quality leather called a PU split.  It's a cheap suede covered with Polyurethane.  It's obvious from the back of the leather that it's not faux or bonded as those would have much more uniform backs.   The fuzzy aspect assures me it's cheap suede covered in PU.

I don't have a pic of the product, but it does look a awful lot like the product in the image you supplied. In fact the numbers are very similar, except the last digit being one number off. I may need to find others Canadian sellers, and not be entirely dependent on Tandy (kinda)Leather.

[nstarleather]

15 minutes ago, Schick said:

I don't have a pic of the product, but it does look a awful lot like the product in the image you supplied. In fact the numbers are very similar, except the last digit being one number off. I may need to find others Canadian sellers, and not be entirely dependent on Tandy (kinda)Leather.

So amazing to see two so similar posts…regardless it shows Tandy is selling some cheaper quality leather.

[bruce johnson]

If you bought either garment leather or upholstery leather expect a top finish. Get an airplane or go look at couches or new car seats. The leather is uniform in color and texture. Look at unfinished hides - some parts are grainy, some a smooth as a bowling lane. Different parts of a hide take dye differently and some areas on a dyed hide with have different textures . For the factory applications They need to utilize as much as they can and the uniform top finish lets them do that. That is only one factor. The underlying leather may be full grain, top grain, etc. and has the top layer still intact and theoretically stronger. Back leather may have a tight flesh and lower belly and flanks might be taggy so flesh may or may not mean much.. Its been mentioned above but it can also be a split that has been finished, the part planed away from the top grain to make a uniform thickness in that piece. The leftover split is finished and depending on tannage and hide location - might be OK, might be really loose and not very durable. Whether an grain intact leather or split is more appropriate all depends on the intended use of the leather and a cost point. 

Interestingly I had this conversation with an exotic leather supplier. Elephant hide is a nice leather and I have used quite a bit. There is the first generation leather that is top grain. The splits can have an embossed pattern applied and by most appearances appears to be top grain. It takes some trust in the supplier's experience to tell the difference between the top layer and a finished split. It may be still be sold as genuine elephant because it is, although the wear characteristics are going to be different. Same with any other finished leather. 

 

[chiefjason]

13 hours ago, Dwight said:

Sometimes a lesson is actually a blessing in disguise . . . 

I bought some good leather from Weavers . . . and we had a good relationship until the last time.

Someone should have given the cow her hide back . . . I would have if I could have.

BUT . . . I hung on to it . . . knowing one day there would be a need that I could put that garbage to work in . . . and it would work very well when I found it.

Yep . . . had a special job come up where the leather just had to be leather . . . nothing fancy . . . no special requirements.  I did the job  . . .  it was a very good project as far as the build and final look was concerned . . . buyer was ecstatic . . . 

My lesson simply is Weaver will never get another dime of my money . . . and I used to really enjoy the drive to their shop . . . wandered thru the retail store . . . saw all the new gadgets . . . probably never again . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

 

Dwight, have you noticed veg tanned leather taking a serious down turn since Covid?  I've ordered from 3 top suppliers with a real mixed bag of success with my leather.  Stopped ordering from one well know place because the leather temper was way too soft.  Had some holsters that would not hold the molding through drying.  One pre dyed side so soft I can't make pancakes with it so I have to use it for other stuff.  Ordered from another and the temper is so hard it's nearly unworkable.  Now I'm on a third supplier and the leather seems more workable but the quality is lacking.  But I knew that upfront and took a chance on the cheaper grade being less stiff and more workable.  So far it seems to be.  Just having to work around more defects.  Been at this 12 years and this is the worst leather I've seen since when I was stuck buying cheap stuff a couple feet at a time.  

[nstarleather]

2 hours ago, chiefjason said:

 

Dwight, have you noticed veg tanned leather taking a serious down turn since Covid?  I've ordered from 3 top suppliers with a real mixed bag of success with my leather.  Stopped ordering from one well know place because the leather temper was way too soft.  Had some holsters that would not hold the molding through drying.  One pre dyed side so soft I can't make pancakes with it so I have to use it for other stuff.  Ordered from another and the temper is so hard it's nearly unworkable.  Now I'm on a third supplier and the leather seems more workable but the quality is lacking.  But I knew that upfront and took a chance on the cheaper grade being less stiff and more workable.  So far it seems to be.  Just having to work around more defects.  Been at this 12 years and this is the worst leather I've seen since when I was stuck buying cheap stuff a couple feet at a time.  

I've seen some quality drop in general...I think it's a combo of less workforce, supply chain issues and because of those to factors you get less quality "because they can"...I have an order in with one of the bigger USA tanneries for 5000 feet of one of their "Flagship leathers" and they've delivered 1500 feet since April 2020...they did have another 700 this year but I said to wait till they had more to ship.  But, what am I gonna do?  Nobody else makes it (one of those that people buy for the "name" as much as for the leather)...so I just wait patiently.  

So, they are really in the power position and if all the tanneries are working at full capacity (with huge waits), they can deliver lesser quality without worrying about complaints about quality or lead time.  

[chiefjason]

10 hours ago, nstarleather said:

I've seen some quality drop in general...I think it's a combo of less workforce, supply chain issues and because of those to factors you get less quality "because they can"...I have an order in with one of the bigger USA tanneries for 5000 feet of one of their "Flagship leathers" and they've delivered 1500 feet since April 2020...they did have another 700 this year but I said to wait till they had more to ship.  But, what am I gonna do?  Nobody else makes it (one of those that people buy for the "name" as much as for the leather)...so I just wait patiently.  

So, they are really in the power position and if all the tanneries are working at full capacity (with huge waits), they can deliver lesser quality without worrying about complaints about quality or lead time.  

 

I talked to 2 of the CS folks with one tannery and one large distributor.  

The tannery lost most of their employees during Covid.  Or at least a serious percentage.  That's a lot of institutional memory and experience that is just gone.  That's when I also really started noticing the quality dropping.  And I've talked the the my rep about the change in temper in their leather.  I just got a side of a different leather from them but have not used it yet.  

The distributor flat out told me that one of the tanneries no longer sells them their top quality leather.  One of the biggest retailers in the country and one of the biggest tanneries won't sell them their top grade leather.  Crazy.  

That same tannery produced the leather I got from a different distributor that was so hard I could barely mold it.  And that was their tannery run grade which is all that company carries.  

It would probably be easier to just throw the names in there but there's a chance all 3 places are getting screwed in this process as well with employees losses and supply issues.  It's a mess.  

[Klara]

@Schick Use the leather for practice. I made the same mistake, bought some leather whose price was too good to be true. It was plastic-coated veg tan split leather, but not described as split on the web site. At first I was angry and disappointed (also with me, because I didn't realise what I had until I had started using it and the coating came off at an edge, so I couldn't send it back). But then I enjoyed the freedom that came with working with a cheap material where I don't need to be afraid of messing up. 

And since then I've realised that it is a perfect material for dog collars and all-weather utility bags, because it needs no taking care of. My dog has gone in the water with it almost daily for over a year, and the collar is still as good as new.

What I'm trying to say: You'll find a use for your purchase, even if it's not what you originally intended. 

[nstarleather]

22 hours ago, chiefjason said:

 

I talked to 2 of the CS folks with one tannery and one large distributor.  

The tannery lost most of their employees during Covid.  Or at least a serious percentage.  That's a lot of institutional memory and experience that is just gone.  That's when I also really started noticing the quality dropping.  And I've talked the the my rep about the change in temper in their leather.  I just got a side of a different leather from them but have not used it yet.  

The distributor flat out told me that one of the tanneries no longer sells them their top quality leather.  One of the biggest retailers in the country and one of the biggest tanneries won't sell them their top grade leather.  Crazy.  

That same tannery produced the leather I got from a different distributor that was so hard I could barely mold it.  And that was their tannery run grade which is all that company carries.  

It would probably be easier to just throw the names in there but there's a chance all 3 places are getting screwed in this process as well with employees losses and supply issues.  It's a mess.  

It's one of those "I know it sucks but we're doing the best we can!" situations. For a while during the pandemic our normal one week or less turn around time went to 3-5 weeks and we lost a "problem customer" because he insisted we get his order done one day earlier than I promised we could...and he got mad.  In the end it's been the biggest blessing ever...the peace of not having to deal with him was so much better than any money he spent (and he was a $70K a year customer).

 

[Handstitched]

16 hours ago, Klara said:

Use the leather for practice. I made the same mistake, bought some leather whose price was too good to be true.

I normally get my leather from a regular supplier 2-3 hrs away  in Perth , ( Western Australia) but I keep seeing  vt leather sides on ebay from a tannery in the east of Oz  a lot cheaper than what I was paying.But had a gut feeling , like a ' too good to be true' feeling.   So, my curiosity got the better of me. I bought some .

It was crap !!!!!!!! Uneven thickness, wasn't tanned properly ,  the colour wasn't like  the normal vt pinky, flesh colour, it was more like a light olive    wouldn't tool properly , like tooling rubber,  as for dying...well,  I've never seen leather 'drink' so much dye . It was like dying a sponge . 

I didn't waste it, I used for odd jobs occasionally ,  but with a lot of oil,  but  once its gone, its gone ..never again! 

Lesson learnt. Go with your gut feeling 

HS

[HENDREFORGAN]

Truth is the way that the leather industry, whatever country it's in, describes and markets it's products can cause real confusion?  Let's just take one very important industry phrase . . is it "Hide Split" or "Split Hide"?  Both different leather hides!  You might also think that an industry brought up on a natural resource couldn't handle modern needs or materials?  Not the case, leather merchants have been adept at turning their natural product into the "latest craze" for centuries.  When as a Napoleonic Re-enactor our small group were in 1989 the first to recreate the 1791 French Infantry Casque it was our research that gave us the conditions to seemingly include two leather hides no longer available to us, leopard skin and bear skin.  Technically the turban around the helmet was leopard hide and the chenille, or caterpillar, across the top bear hide with the hair left on.  However such was the cost of making this new design that the early French Republic permitted that to be used on Officer's headdress and for other ranks the turban to be bleached veg tanned cowhide the hair left on and imprinted with dye the unique spot pattern of the leopard, the chenille was to be goat skin, dyed if necessary, and stuffed with straw.  So we simply recreated that specification.

On a visit to the amazing Walsall Leather Museum (*) years ago we were studying a display of fake hides, some impounded upon import, and were amazed at how much effort was put into creating fakes compared to processing the real thing and the range shown yet the Curator joked "This is only some of our examples and I'm sure we have some "Faux Dinosaur Hide" around somewhere".  This effort is made profitable by the genuine item not being available or at a huge cost, not unlike the French Casque I mention above, and from these early entrepreneurs we today have a huge "faux leather" market.

In the case of the OP's hide surely the listing in the catalogue or sales information MUST have mentioned PU (Polyurethane)?  That the sticky label mentions this would seem to indicate they were not hiding this "faux leather" in any way.  By the way, an earlier respondent thought the rear face had to be real as it looked like "fuzzy suede"?  In fact if you look closer you will see another valuable indicator as to what form of leather the construction is?  Ignoring the loose "tufts" you can just determine a uniform grid and that is most likely caused by a pressure roller use during the bonding process.  That earlier respondent is definitely correct in one aspect, a completely uniform gridded surface is highly likely to be indicating a form of cloth.

Finding and collating your own reference library of information on leather is time consuming but, when you see say on YouTube a leather merchant uploading some thing useful, then "screen video-grab" that and store your copy in a safe place, you'll be surprised what is out there.

With regard to choosing a hide to purchase you should find that any merchant worth his business will cut off a sample and sent it to you?  If you think it's a faux hide, and some are so real as to be easily ignored, then do two tests.  First use a magnifying glass and look at the side (thickness) of the hide . . does it have two or three defined layers?  Some leather sold as "genuine hide" can be a composite of face/middle/inside with the outer two fine slivers of good hide but the inner carcass a bonded mish-mash of sweepings from the floor!  This leather should be marketed as "manufactured leather".  This form of "genuine faux" hide has no substance and cannot be sewn either, the stitching can "unzip".  The other test is to work the sample between your hands repeatedly bending it . . does the face layer now have corrugations lifted up?  That's very likely indicating the fake top surface becoming unstuck, again it can neither be tooled and too strong a setting with machine stitching can "unzip" stitches.

Risking being shouted down can I include in my response that, yet again, I see a "fictitious hide" being referenced?  That is . . . suede.  There is no such hide or leather known as "suede" only a process known as sueding which can be applied to a range of animal hides.  The term can also be applied to a napped surface on cloth, for instance moleskin garments that are actually 100% cotton.  Now you know, do yourself a favour and call the hide by its type as well?

(*) Sadly only a part of what we walked around is now on public display but, for genuine enquiries, I believe the Museum staff will permit access to the record section  Web-site here : https://go.walsall.gov.uk/museums-libraries-and-galleries/walsall-leather-museum

Edited February 7, 2023 by HENDREFORGAN
correcting typos