Tanning and Bottle Making

[Sheilajeanne]

I receive a daily notice through Early Bird Books of e-books that are available at a discount price. You can read a certain portion of the book for free to  help you decide if you want to buy it.

Today's picks included a book on Forgotten Crafts https://www.amazon.com/Book-Forgotten-Crafts-David-ebook/dp/B0072MXMZE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ZJ7XU463C7TX&keywords=The+Book+of+Forgotten+Crafts&qid=1672425042&sprefix=the+book+of+forgotten+crafts%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1

The section you can read for free covers both the work of a tannery and a shop that makes bottles and other drinking vessels out of leather.

The tannery, J. and F.J. Baker in England, is the only one in Britain which still uses the traditional oak bark tanning method. Because of this, its leather is in very high demand by high-end users, especially saddle and bridle makers. There has been a tannery on this site since Roman times.

Happy reading!

[chuck123wapati]

23 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

I receive a daily notice through Early Bird Books of e-books that are available at a discount price. You can read a certain portion of the book for free to  help you decide if you want to buy it.

Today's picks included a book on Forgotten Crafts https://www.amazon.com/Book-Forgotten-Crafts-David-ebook/dp/B0072MXMZE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ZJ7XU463C7TX&keywords=The+Book+of+Forgotten+Crafts&qid=1672425042&sprefix=the+book+of+forgotten+crafts%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1

The section you can read for free covers both the work of a tannery and a shop that makes bottles and other drinking vessels out of leather.

The tannery, J. and F.J. Baker in England, is the only one in Britain which still uses the traditional oak bark tanning method. Because of this, its leather is in very high demand by high-end users, especially saddle and bridle makers. There has been a tannery on this site since Roman times.

Happy reading!

what is interesting is that bitumen is used for lining the bottles, cups and such. 

[Sheilajeanne]

Yes, I thought that might interest some people here who make drinking vessels.

[fredk]

I wonder how they get away with using bitumen in bottles and cups

For the last 25 years or so bitumen is only allowed to be used in agriculture by licensed users, eg arborists. Its forbidden for other uses

UK 'nanny' state laws

[DwightT]

What I found interesting was that the tannery uses only hides from beef cattle, and not dairy cattle.  His explanation that hides from dairy cattle have been stretched out because of calving makes sense, but it's just not something that I ever thought about.

I recently found a podcast called "This Job is History" where they talk about jobs that don't exist any more.  I haven't listened to it yet, but it seems like it might be similar to this book.  I may have to buy the Kindle version of the book just out of curiosity.

Thanks for letting us know about it.

    /dwight

[fredk]

Oddly, despite it being Kindle and Amazon, that book is not available to me. I can't use kindle anyways, my eBook is a Kobo, not compatible

 

[Klara]

You can get a free Kindle App for PC (Windows) or Android devices. Well worth it in my opinion because I prefer reading in the Kindle App to looking at the sample on the web site ("Look Inside" is still an option for you if you don't want to install Kindle). 

Secondly, the book is available to me in France, but via Amazon.fr

Have you tried Amazon.co.uk? You can simply click on the link and change the country identifier. I just got my sample and checked that the leather bottle making is still included...

Thirdly, I don't particularly like people talking about forgotten or disappeared crafts. Generally people think so only because they don't know the subject (I've heard of somebody claiming there's no need for farriers anymore)  - and if a craft was forgotten or had disappeared, you couldn't make a book about the craftsmen... 

[Sheilajeanne]

Fred, sometimes the sale price is limited to a specific seller. This particular book would cost me $13.77 because I'm in Canada, and the sale price is only available to U.S. residents. 

They occasionally do have books that are available for Kobo users only, and I've installed the Kobo app on my tablet so I can read those books too. I love reading, and this service has turned me into an e-book junkie! After seeing how much money I'd spent in one month, I have learned to restrain myself, though have seriously thought of getting an Amazon Kindle subscription for $9.99 a month! 

One drawback to the book (from reading the reviews) is it's not a 'how to' book, but mostly just focuses on interviewing the people who still do these crafts. However, some of the interviews do give valuable information on how the crafts are done - look at the diagrams for the wheelwright. The leather bottle interview also gives some valuable information about how this particular craftsperson makes the bottles.

Re: bitumen - it definitely contains carcinogenic chemicals: https://www.anses.fr/en/content/exposure-bitumen Definitely would not want to drink out of bottles lined with it!

Dwight, I really can't understand why they would only use beef cattle for the hides. Beef cows have to produce just as many babies as milk cows, and when they can no longer get pregnant, they go to slaughter. That makes no sense to me. Males of both types of cattle are castrated at a young age, and eventually slaughtered for meat. The only difference I can think of is dairy cattle are generally leaner than beef cattle, so would be less likely to have fat wrinkles in the hides. And that's and advantage rather than a disadvantage!

Edited January 1, 2023 by Sheilajeanne

[chuck123wapati]

9 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

 

 

 

Dwight, I really can't understand why they would only use beef cattle for the hides. Beef cows have to produce just as many babies as milk cows, and when they can no longer get pregnant, they go to slaughter. That makes no sense to me. Males of both types of cattle are castrated at a young age, and eventually slaughtered for meat. The only difference I can think of is dairy cattle are generally leaner than beef cattle, so would be less likely to have fat wrinkles in the hides. And that's and advantage rather than a disadvantage!

Beef cattle are sold at a much younger age usually two/three year olds. they breed them once usually around puberty.  dairy cattle live for years up to 15 and have multiple calves thats how they stay producing milk.  the book is correct.

[Sheilajeanne]

Chuck, for many years there were two dairy farmers in my family. Of course they keep the cows for breeding and milking, but they are only 50% of the herd. The males are treated pretty much exactly the way male beef cows are treated: castrated at a young age, fattened up and sold for slaughter when they reach their full growth.

Beef farmers generally keep the females to increase the size of their herd. So, no, I don't really see the difference. The hide of an old beef cow is going to be just as stretched as the hide of an old Holstein dairy cow.

[chuck123wapati]

15 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Chuck, for many years there were two dairy farmers in my family. Of course they keep the cows for breeding and milking, but they are only 50% of the herd. The males are treated pretty much exactly the way male beef cows are treated: castrated at a young age, fattened up and sold for slaughter when they reach their full growth.

Beef farmers generally keep the females to increase the size of their herd. So, no, I don't really see the difference. The hide of an old beef cow is going to be just as stretched as the hide of an old Holstein dairy cow.

 i wont argue the point the book is correct. its a cool book but i wont use tar as a liner for my bottles, i will take my set of foxfire books over this one any day, especially the wheel wright section. 

Most dairy farms don't have bulls at all, so no they aren't really 50% of the herd, at least not more than one, they are useless to them and cost money, especially if they smell the neighbors cows. Beef cattle are sold at two to three years old that's where the majority of leather comes from. The young male dairy cattle and beef cattle are sold at two or before also don't have calves so their hide isn't ruined by either fighting or breeding. 

beef ranching is a whole different concept than dairy farming. biggest is and what your not getting is they don't keep the females to have calves over and over. they sell the cows after one, or two, if they want to expand, then raise the calves. they also don't impregnate the whole herd every year they stagger the breeding so they can stager the cash flow as well see the idea is to make a living. Bottom line is you dont make a living selling old tough beef you make a living selling young tender beef and you cant sell old hides either apparently. The money is made on the animal not the milk, you simply cant feed a beef cow for years and make a profit, they have one calf then off to the feed lots if a rancher wants to increase his herd size then maybe two calves so there are very very few "old" beef cows if any at all. 

After being sold by the rancher they are then fattened up in a feed lot. 

[Sheilajeanne]

Chuck, statistically 50% of the calves born are male. My uncles would castrate them and keep them until they were old enough to sell for veal. It may be different now, but that's how they did it. So, 50/50 sex split...male calves were pastured and grass fed, minimum cost as long as pasture was good.

[Klara]

Well, it seems cattle breeding is done very differently in different parts of the world. Here in France decent dairy cows are kept until they have serious health problems  - often only 3 calves for high-performance Prim' Holsteins. Or 10, if all goes well.

For beef cows it's basically the same, except they don't develop the health problems so quickly if they can give birth easily. Generally the whole herd (which is much smaller than in the U.S.) is impregnated (by a bull in the field) and the male calves either sold as calves or castrated and left to grow up (no idea how to translate broutard, sorry) for a year or two. The females are selected - the promising ones for the stable (replacing old cows or increasing the herd), the others for the table. 

[chuck123wapati]

22 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Chuck, statistically 50% of the calves born are male. My uncles would castrate them and keep them until they were old enough to sell for veal. It may be different now, but that's how they did it. So, 50/50 sex split...male calves were pastured and grass fed, minimum cost as long as pasture was good.

 

Statistically yes but reality is no. Veal comes from two month old's at the latest.so no the herd isn't 50 /50 more than a couple of months on any dairy farm. Sorry Sheila its about money and profit and dairy people and ranchers are not making money feeding critters they cant feed for free that is the reality of life on a farm or ranch.

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, Klara said:

Well, it seems cattle breeding is done very differently in different parts of the world. Here in France decent dairy cows are kept until they have serious health problems  - often only 3 calves for high-performance Prim' Holsteins. Or 10, if all goes well.

For beef cows it's basically the same, except they don't develop the health problems so quickly if they can give birth easily. Generally the whole herd (which is much smaller than in the U.S.) is impregnated (by a bull in the field) and the male calves either sold as calves or castrated and left to grow up (no idea how to translate broutard, sorry) for a year or two. The females are selected - the promising ones for the stable (replacing old cows or increasing the herd), the others for the table. 

yup cattle ranching is done differently even here in the US. it is really dependent on how much natural feed they can get on the land they have to use that created the different methods long long ago.

[Sheilajeanne]

I know for a fact that my uncles kept most of the steers until they were fully grown (about a year). Once weaned, they were turned out to grass. (Giving the calves their milk was one of my favourite jobs when I visited my uncles, and helped with the chores.) I asked what they did with them after that, and the answer was, 'we veal them'. So, evidently young cattle can still be sold as 'veal' at that age, just not milk-fed veal. I know how big these animals were, as I was with my uncle when he was loading some of them on a truck to take for slaughter.

Of course, weather and the market would help determine how long the non-milk producing animals were kept. Both uncles had all registered stock, so the heifers not needed as milk cows would still sell for a good price to other dairy farmers. If the pastures were not in good shape due to weather, I'm sure the steers were sent to market sooner than usual, to avoid having to feed them hay.

The trend now is to ship the calves to a feedlot at about a week old. And that's quite controversial, because a lot of them get sick from the stress and die, because their immune systems aren't fully developed yet.

[Sheilajeanne]

Klara, the translator won't translate bouvard either, but the word you're looking for might be un bouvillon for a castrated male. In English we say steer.

[fredk]

In English English we call them bullocks

[Sheilajeanne]

Bullocks because they're missing their bollocks?? 

[Matt S]

36 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Bullocks because they're missing their bollocks?? 

Pretty much! Bullock is from Old English buluca (from bulla + the diminutive suffix -uc -- "little bull"). Can mean either "young bull" or "castrated bull". Usually the latter in the modern era. Bollocks is derived from Old English baluc (bal meaning "swell" or "inflate" as in "ball" or "bellows" and same diminutive suffix -- literally "little swellings"). That's far too similar for me to think that it's entirely coincidental, especially considering my ancestors' love of a good pun and their earthy sense of humour.

There's also "ox", of similar Saxon antiquity, which is a (usually castrated) bull trained for draught work. We haven't done that here for a long time, yet J & FJ Baker specifies that they select "ox hides" . Having been there, got the tour and nearly fallen in the liming pit the fresh hides I saw were mostly from black-n-whites and somewhere around 40-50SQFT. That can't be a young calf (calfhides I buy are around 20SQFT). The colouring implies either Holsteins or Fresians which means dairy but they claim to only use oxen so I'd say they use hides from "surplus" dairy bullocks raised to optimum meat value.
 

On 12/31/2022 at 6:27 PM, fredk said:

I wonder how they get away with using bitumen in bottles and cups

For the last 25 years or so bitumen is only allowed to be used in agriculture by licensed users, eg arborists. Its forbidden for other uses

You sure that's not creosote you're thinking of? Bitumen is the thick stuff they use on roofs and roads, usually either melted or mixed with solvents to make it workable. I can buy a can of bitumen from a DIY shop but creosote has to be bought from agricultural factors... or you just buy it online and claim "yeah sure I'm a farm, honest, please deliver it to my suburban flat"  It's the stuff that telegraph poles and railway sleepers are soaked in and makes a lovely whiff on a summer's day. Depending how cooked off it was of those two I would imagine bitumen would be a lot more palatable in a bottle but I'd be bloody thirsty before I chose it. Most people I've spoken to who make blackjacks and costrels today use beeswax or brewer's pitch.

[Burkhardt]

12 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

yup cattle ranching is done differently even here in the US. it is really dependent on how much natural feed they can get on the land they have to use that created the different methods long long ago.

Beef cattle in your part of the country may be different but it ain't how they do it in the Midwest. Of course the word heifer is misused with cattle but if they have females that keep producing calves they keep breeding them. The farmer would go broke if they only bred them once. If half of the calves were male and you ship them all out and just keep the young females you'd go broke. That's why they ween them in the fall so the mothers can regrow the calves over winter.   Any farmer will tell you heifers have birthing problems after that they keep breeding them till they don't get pregnant then they go to slaughter.

[Klara]

10 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Klara, the translator won't translate bouvard either, but the word you're looking for might be un bouvillon for a castrated male. In English we say steer.

"Broutard" commes from "brouter" - to graze - because they mostly stand around in a field and eat (in (South?) German they are called "Fresser" which means the same), but I guess yes, they'd be male, so steers or bullocks. 

[Sheilajeanne]

A heifer is a young female that hasn't yet had a calf. Once she's calved, she's just a plain old cow. 

Oxen are different from steers. They are allowed to reach their full size as males before being castrated. They are MASSIVE animals! 

From what I've seen, most male dairy calves are castrated by banding, at as young an age as possible. The farmers don't want to deal with the aggression that comes when they get bigger, and banding the calf is something the farmer can do without a vet's help.

[chuck123wapati]

16 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

I know for a fact that my uncles kept most of the steers until they were fully grown (about a year). Once weaned, they were turned out to grass. (Giving the calves their milk was one of my favourite jobs when I visited my uncles, and helped with the chores.) I asked what they did with them after that, and the answer was, 'we veal them'. So, evidently young cattle can still be sold as 'veal' at that age, just not milk-fed veal. I know how big these animals were, as I was with my uncle when he was loading some of them on a truck to take for slaughter.

Of course, weather and the market would help determine how long the non-milk producing animals were kept. Both uncles had all registered stock, so the heifers not needed as milk cows would still sell for a good price to other dairy farmers. If the pastures were not in good shape due to weather, I'm sure the steers were sent to market sooner than usual, to avoid having to feed them hay.

The trend now is to ship the calves to a feedlot at about a week old. And that's quite controversial, because a lot of them get sick from the stress and die, because their immune systems aren't fully developed yet.

Both references from Canadian sites.

Veal means the meat of a bovine animal that has the maturity characteristics set out in Schedule I to Part IV and a carcass weight of 180 kg or less as defined in the Livestock and Poultry Carcass Grading Regulations established under the Canada Agricultural Products Act. Any carcasses not meeting the "veal" definition must be labelled as beef.

 

• So that they will constantly give milk, dairy cows are artificially impregnated every year. After a nine-month gestation, calves are routinely taken from their mothers days, or sometimes just hours, after being born.
• Male calves are sold to veal farms at auction and will be slaughtered at about five months old, while females will eventually become dairy cows themselves. These young females will never be nursed by their mothers, however; all of their milk is destined for human consumption.

[chuck123wapati]

7 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

Beef cattle in your part of the country may be different but it ain't how they do it in the Midwest. Of course the word heifer is misused with cattle but if they have females that keep producing calves they keep breeding them. The farmer would go broke if they only bred them once. If half of the calves were male and you ship them all out and just keep the young females you'd go broke. That's why they ween them in the fall so the mothers can regrow the calves over winter.   Any farmer will tell you heifers have birthing problems after that they keep breeding them till they don't get pregnant then they go to slaughter.

yup and available feed is the reason, you can look at the United states on google earth for the best image. Where the Midwest ends and the west begins you will see a distinct color change the earth goes from pretty green to desolate brown. That big brown brown area is where the wild west happened and where farms stopped and ranches started. Why because there was little water and even less fertile soils. After the civil war broke assed men, now known as rootin tootin cowboys would gather wild Spanish cattle and herd them out into that big dry brown area, about a 1/3rd of the US, let them feed on what little grass there was then herd or after the railroad was built ship them back to the Midwest to feed lots which btw were invented at this time to fatten up those range cattle before sale for slaughter. Why because the Midwest has plenty of good feed while the west doesn't.  So out here where i live there is a marked difference between ranches and farms and a marked difference on how raising cattle is successfully done. There is little green pasture land to do both, winter cattle and graze cattle in the summer. It was and still is a very precarious business out here. one bad winter or one dry summer could make a rancher sell off most of his entire herd no matter what age they are. You folks in the Midwest can easily feed a cow forever for free and let it have as many calves as you want.

 Its amazing as i write this i realize the picture in each of our heads of a cows life. i see them daily out in a vast desert wandering miles through sagebrush and sand feeding on what little they can find while some of you may have a much different picture of cattle lazily standing around grazing in rich succulent grass. ya gotta love the world as it is.