Manufacturer's Supply Company Bell Skiver Project

[mcguyver42]

Hello, I would appreciate some advice on an old Bell Skiver I bought a while back. I am at the point of trying to decide whether this is a viable restoration project or a parts machine for someone else. It's a Manufacturer's Supply Company Model 15ASTN mounted on the original table with exhaust system and waste collection bin.

 

Known Problems before tear-down:

The left door is missing.

I think there is a knob in that door that is a stop or adjustment for something, (knob missing too).

I don't have the correct Spare parts manual, and don't really know much about these machines.

Knife cover is missing

The guide and feet are missing

One of the pulleys has some pieces broken out

If holding the knife still and rocking the pulley, there is almost 1/8" of lash

Of course it will need a new knife, sharpening stone and belts

Motors are 3 phase

 

I want to experiment with some chrome tan projects. If this is beyond repair, a new or good used one will not be in my budget for some time. In that case, I might be looking for a manual alternative. Any recommendations?

 

 

 

 

 

More

[mcguyver42]

[mcguyver42]

You may have noticed that I have 2 right side covers sitting on the table there

[RockyAussie]

It has some similarities to a Fortuna skiver but I can not see from your pictures how the sharpening stone can be driven. Normally there is a belt that feeds inside through the machine and that hooks over the back right pulley set up. Some other machines run off a clutch that is on the right front pulley but I see no front control knob to actuate it. Otherwise I see a fair bit to do but the part that worries me most is that there is no cover over the back gearbox that transfers the motion to the feed roller. If you turn the back right pulley clockwise by hand does the feed stone revolve alright? The bell looks to have plenty of metal left so that's good.  The left cover that is missing should not matter to start with. I will try and load up a pdf file that may be to large as that may help a little. Best of luck.Fortuna 50 p ag.pdf

[Danne]

I found this thread, a similar machine, a post from Nuttish further down in the thread show a machine with the same model number as yours.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Danne

[mcguyver42]

You nailed it on the missing cover. I had noticed it missing, but didn't think much of it. There appears to be a missing gearset and transfer shaft arangement that drives the feed roller just as you said. I'll post up some pictures in a bit. This thing was basically free to me. It was thrown in with a sewing machine lot that I bought a few years ago. It is history though, and I hate to see it go to the scrap yard.

 

Thanks Danne, I was able to learn from that thread that my missing knob (in the missing cover), is a sharpening stone dressing tool.

[mcguyver42]

I might be interested in a parts machine if anyone has one.  I don't know how you would go about shipping something like that?  This thing must weigh 100 pounds or more.

[mcguyver42]

There it is, an empty gear box, and missing shaft from the gear box to the material feed assembly. 

[RockyAussie]

That is what I was afraid I might see. Without picking up another head somewhere I think it will be pretty hard to get going but that said ...the vacuum part and table of it could be worth an easy $200+. If here in OZ I would pay that and more. IF you could work in close with one of the dealers and if one is close by then you may be able to find some compatible parts.

[Matt S]

Looks like someone scavenged the feed wheel driver shaft, with its associated worm drive, to supply another machine. Maybe you can track them down and steal them back? 

The other issues aren't so bad -- the presser feet and guide can be ordered if of the standard design or probably wouldn't be too tricky to make. If the slop in the knife-pulley arrangement is in degrees of rotation (i.e. not slopping left and right or up and down) that's normal -- a result of the coupling which allows the knife to be adjusted left and right. The knife guard can be built too if you really want one -- my skiver is too old for a guard so the previous ownerpanelbeat one from brass.

I wonder how close to fitting the "standard" Chinese replacement parts would be? Otherwise again it wouldn't take too much trouble to get a piece of bright shafting of the right size (probably a standard inch size, but if not turn it down on a lathe until it fits) and needs a cross pin at the business end to mate loosely in the slot at the back of the wheel. The gear would be expensive and hard to replace but you could just leave the shaft long hanging out the back of the head driven by a separate motor. Or failing that just replace the feed wheel with something smooth that closely matches the shape of the stone and you may be able to feed the leather manually.

If it's for a hobby and you like tinkering it could be a fun project. 

[mcguyver42]

Yes, absolutely on the vacuum table, that will be a nice compliment to a "someday" bell skiver.  I appreciate your input, that at least settles the issue as to whether it  can be put back or not.  It hard a hard life in a Florsheim shoe factory.  The guy who was maintaining their equipment in house was doing his best I think to keep the old girl online by packing grease into the gear case along with the oil to slow the leaks down.  I got it from a rancher in Ocala along with 3 singer sewing machines from the same factory, so it's a nice story anyway.

I think I would be better off to track him down and give him $20 to take it off my hands, but that's not a half bad idea with the separate motor!  I literally just broke my Barnsley skiving knives out last night, but it is just a hobby, and I do indeed like tinkering. 

 

[mcguyver42]

I thought I would pass this along, because it lends credence to the Manufacturer's Supplies Company Bell Skivers as being possibly a German import for what it's worth.

I decided I need to take the seals out of this gear-case.  They are marked CFW, which turns out to be Carl Freudenberg Weinheim, a German company from 1849 that is still in business today.  Interestingly enough, they started off as a tannery, and didn't get into the sealing business until the late 1920's and developed the revolutionary simmerring in 1932, and named it after the Freudenberg developer Walther Simmer.  The Campbell Randall Parts list/ Service manual for this machine, refers to the seals as Simmerrings.  Freudenberg company history, It's good read if you like that kind of thing

[Tugadude]

I love this topic because of the St. Louis connection.  Having lived here my whole life I have a sense of pride for the city.  Turns out the company whose moniker is on the machine is still in business.  They are in Earth City, a suburb of St. Louis.  Florsheim Shoes are still around in some capacity, but a mere shadow of what they used to be as far as I'm aware.  I doubt there's any domestic manufacture anymore but I might be surprised.

Here's some info on the current Manufacturers Supply Co.

About Us

Manufacturers Supplies Company, in partnership with Europe’s leading equipment manufacturers, specializes in the complete sales & service of precision cutting & converting technologies for a wide variety of industrial sectors. These industries include abrasives, adhesive tapes, aerospace, composites, converting, foam & packaging, footwear & leather goods, electronics, medical, petro-chemical, technical textiles, & transportation.

Headquartered in St. Louis, MO since 1907, with strategic sales & service locations throughout North America, Manufacturers Supplies Company offers a comprehensive range of precision cutting & converting technologies, placing great emphasis on application development, training & after sales support. Over the years, we have partnered with only the highest quality & most reputable equipment manufacturers in the world, solidifying our reputation as the leading supplier of industrial converting systems & solutions. Our vast range of technologies include: dieless knife cutting tables & waterjet cutting systems, die cutting presses, narrow web die cutting (flat bed & rotary) & laser cutting equipment, single knife & multi-shaft lathe slitters, slitters-rewinders & log winders, adhesive coaters & specialty laminators.

Manufacturers Supplies Company’s strength not only lies in the high quality & technology of its partners equipment but also the depth of talented and experienced technical sales support team. The majority of our personnel are experienced in several disciplines, including mechanical, electrical and software programming. MSC leverages this knowledge base and hands-on approach to offer their clients accelerated developments of new technologies to improve their current manufacturing process. Our directive, and primary consideration, is to make dramatic improvements to our clients success by providing the latest technology available, excellent service-support and custom engineering for unique applications.

 

 

[mcguyver42]

Yeah, rich history there in St Louis.  I'm from Kansas City myself, and then moved around the Midwest a few times when my dad transferred.  I miss the Midwest. Good honest, genuine folks.  Others in the forums have said that MSC isn't much interested in trying to help in any way with this old equipment, but I appreciate the tip just the same.  Have you acquired any of that good ol Made in St. Louis U.S.A. shoe machinery?  I don't think there is much U.S. shoe manufacturing anymore.  Redwing still makes some of their shoes here, but a lot of it is imported now too.  Redwing has their own tannery too I found out a while back.  I don't remember the name, but I'm sure I have it written down somewhere.  I'll look for it.  I'm sure there are others.  Even Mason shoes is still hanging on, but it's all imported.  I remember when I was younger, there was this older gentleman who must have been 80 that would come out to the shop and take your Mason shoe order.  

[mcguyver42]

Yeah, he would come out every couple of months, take orders, and when the shoes came in you would buy them right out of the trunk of his car!

[Matt S]

20 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

I thought I would pass this along, because it lends credence to the Manufacturer's Supplies Company Bell Skivers as being possibly a German import for what it's worth.

I decided I need to take the seals out of this gear-case.  They are marked CFW, which turns out to be Carl Freudenberg Weinheim, a German company from 1849 that is still in business today.  Interestingly enough, they started off as a tannery, and didn't get into the sealing business until the late 1920's and developed the revolutionary simmerring in 1932, and named it after the Freudenberg developer Walther Simmer.  The Campbell Randall Parts list/ Service manual for this machine, refers to the seals as Simmerrings.  Freudenberg company history, It's good read if you like that kind of thing

If it's a rebadged German skiver it may be a Fortuna, the archetypal bell knife skiver. Original parts are available, if pricy.

[Tugadude]

18 hours ago, mcguyver42 said:

Yeah, rich history there in St Louis.  I'm from Kansas City myself, and then moved around the Midwest a few times when my dad transferred.  I miss the Midwest. Good honest, genuine folks.  Others in the forums have said that MSC isn't much interested in trying to help in any way with this old equipment, but I appreciate the tip just the same.  Have you acquired any of that good ol Made in St. Louis U.S.A. shoe machinery?  I don't think there is much U.S. shoe manufacturing anymore.  Redwing still makes some of their shoes here, but a lot of it is imported now too.  Redwing has their own tannery too I found out a while back.  I don't remember the name, but I'm sure I have it written down somewhere.  I'll look for it.  I'm sure there are others.  Even Mason shoes is still hanging on, but it's all imported.  I remember when I was younger, there was this older gentleman who must have been 80 that would come out to the shop and take your Mason shoe order.  

S.B. Foot Tanning Company

https://www.redwingshoes.com/red-wing-made/rwm-tanning.html

[mcguyver42]

Well, thank you all for the input, I've decided to abandon this project.  There would be machine shop expense involved, and even if I was able to overcome everything, I think I'm just putting lipstick on the pig here at this point.  There is a guy a few hours from me that has a pretty nice Tecshsew Bell skiver, and might be interested in a sewing machine trade, and if not, I do have the Barnslely's.

[mcguyver42]

If anyone thinks they can use this thing or any parts off of it, they are yours to have.  It has quite a bit of wear on the feed roller lugs.  Any parts that are subject to wear are likely just as bad as yours.  All of the knobs and such are there, and I have two count them two covers for the pulley side.  I'll hang on to it for a while.  If anyone is interested you can contact me for pictures of individual parts.  I live just outside of Orlando Florida if you want to come and get it.

[shoepatcher]

Have you contacted Manufacturers' Supply (MSC)about parts?  They  are still in business.  It looks a lot like the clone Skivers of today.  I am currently rebuilding a Consew DSC-2 skiver.  Find out from MSC where the machine was made.  Clone parts of today may fit!!

glenn

[street53glide]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:23 AM, mcguyver42 said:

If anyone thinks they can use this thing or any parts off of it, they are yours to have.  It has quite a bit of wear on the feed roller lugs.  Any parts that are subject to wear are likely just as bad as yours.  All of the knobs and such are there, and I have two count them two covers for the pulley side.  I'll hang on to it for a while.  If anyone is interested you can contact me for pictures of individual parts.  I live just outside of Orlando Florida if you want to come and get it.

I would like this if you still have it