Consew 146RB 1 1A tension and timing

[ElFishbone]

I recently fell into a Consew 146RB-1A-1 Single Needle Zig Zag, Unison Feed, Walking foot machine. I saw a garage sale ad that had a picture of a patio with items for sale. In the background was an old green industrial sewing machine. So I showed up early only to find out it was a shared stoop and the machine belonged to the neighbor. So I did what any picker would do. Banged on the door and asked about the machine. The rest is history, I drug it home.
It has been cleaned and polished and oiled.  I replaced the warped table top with butcher block, stripped and painted the legs and fitted a pneumatic cylinder to the lift. It was finally time to run the test stitching. I had some scrap furniture leather that 2 layers were about a 1/4” thick and loaded up some T 135 nylon thread and a new 20 leather needle The straight stitch is very nice but the top thread shows on the bottom. So I went through the checklist, needle, threading, bobbin tension adjustment, bobbin area cleaning, and top tension tightened as fas as it will go. No change. So I did it all again after reading all I could find on the forum. 
I removed the tension release pin as Uwe recommended on another post. I was able to get another 3/4 turn on the tension spring and it made a very slight difference, but the spring bottomed out.  And it’s still not right.  I also made some different length pins to eliminate wrong size pin issue
I added another layer of leather and tried. The top thread pulled in and looks good but is still  not in the middle and I can see the nubs of the top thread. I have sewn 6 test patches  and not missed a single stitch and did not suspect a timing issue, but I’m now thinking it is a needle position or a timing issue. The zig zag stitch looks about the same as the straight stitch. I know this is a long post but the more info I provide I feel will yield the best info back. 

 I have a copy of the manual and as all other owners have complained about the Consew manual being old and outdated is an understatement. I would think a company selling a $4k machine would make information transparent for owners.

I would appreciate any help if someone could please share direction for my next step. Frustrated is putting it mildly, my Tippmann Boss was way easier to tune. I have stitched a couple of knife sheaths and a playing card pouch on it and very happy with results, thanks to info found on this forum (Dwight, Uwe, Wiz) and great support from Tippmann.
Thanks in advance.

Fishbone

[Wizcrafts]

First of all, get some #23 leather point needles if you are going to use #138 thread on the top and bobbin. A #21 needle hole is simply too small of a hole to pull #138 knots up in veg tan leather.

Second, after installing a #23 needle, if the knots are still at the bottom, loosen the bobbin tension spring until it only exerts a slight back tension on the bobbin thread. Try reversing the direction the bobbin feeds the spring as one direction will be a smooth pull.

If the top beehive spring can't be backed off with centered knots, buy a heavy duty tension spring. @CowboyBob has them in stock, or did.

[nylonRigging]

Does your manual read like this ?

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[ElFishbone]

My manual is the same as yours. I have checked all the settings and my timing matches the highlighted as shown. I have tried all the recommendations Wiz detailed and there is no difference. The item #4 is the line that has me wondering if the thickness might be the problem. Like the rest of the manual it is not real clear what that means. I have timed or checked timing on single needle industrials and a double needle Judi 512(?) in my quest to find the right machine and never have had an issue like this. Material thickness never was a consideration until now. 
If the machine was set up for maximum thickness material or spongy material would that make a difference when trying to sew thinner, softer material. I haven’t tried a different leather or thread. Doing a search on thread range for this machine it doesn’t yield any clear results. I saw some of your replies to another owner so I think you own one and maybe have an idea of the thread range this machine will handle, if not maybe someone else will join in. 
I also think I saw you are a Camano man. A lot of my early days I fished and clammed the head and crabbed the west side before there were thousands of houses. Still have a couple of friends living there. Great memories. 
Thanks for your interest.

Fishbone

[ElFishbone]

Wiz,

Thanks for the info.

I’m new to the forum and tried to send you a reply but it ended up in web space? Still finding my way around.

I Tried all your recommendations and no change. Will try Cowboy Bob today for the spring. Also will try different thread just to eliminate that variable. The thread in the machine when I got it appeared to be 135 top and bottom but was unraveled from age and hard to tell. 
No info to be found on thread range for this machine, any idea what capacity might be?

Fishbone

[MtlBiker]

@ElFishbone - I haven't seen you confirm that you have actually changed from your #20 needle (that your first post says you use) to the #23 that's been recommended.

Also you mention your 135 thread might be old and unraveled... have you tried new good quality thread?

And do you know how to do the "drop test" on your bobbin to see if the tension is correct?

Edited February 24, 2023 by MtlBiker

[CowboyBob]

3 hours ago, ElFishbone said:

Wiz,

Thanks for the info.

I’m new to the forum and tried to send you a reply but it ended up in web space? Still finding my way around.

I Tried all your recommendations and no change. Will try Cowboy Bob today for the spring. Also will try different thread just to eliminate that variable. The thread in the machine when I got it appeared to be 135 top and bottom but was unraveled from age and hard to tell. 
No info to be found on thread range for this machine, any idea what capacity might be?

Fishbone

You can take your tension spring off & stretch it alittle to make it stronger.FYI machines with front loading bobbins never give a good stitch esp. leather,I've seen this happen on Adler 105's that have the front loading bobbin.machine will sew better w/a side loading bobbin.This machine was made to sew cloth,canvas or vinyl where it'll make a better stitch.

[ElFishbone]

MTLBiker

Because the top tension was so extreme I went slightly beyond the drop test on the bobbin tension, ended up being about a Pound of pull. I did change the needle like Wiz suggested and it made no difference.

As far as the thread, the reason I used the 135 was because the thread that was on the machine was old and unraveled but looked like 135. The thread I have is a new quality nylon. Your suggestions are appreciated. I always try to go to the basics as you suggest and have good results. Most of the time that I have had tension problems like this, it has been operator error. Improper threading, bad or wrong needle etc.

Bob,

After I got this machine I read the description for it  and it described its use as medium to heavy material. So I made the ass umption leather was in the heavy class. Oops! I will go out to the shop and try your idea of stretching the spring. I did trade it out for one from my Tippmann Boss and from my old heavy Singer 96, but neither of those are any different than the original. I also tried different bobbins and holder. 

I will try a different material and see what happens. There must not be a lot of this model machine out there because information is outdated and not a lot of it, or the machine is not that great. If stretching the spring works I'll get with you about the heavier spring and some other things.

Thanks all to the excellent info and responses.

 Regards Fishbone

[nylonRigging]

12 hours ago, ElFishbone said:

My manual is the same as yours. I have checked all the settings and my timing matches the highlighted as shown. I have tried all the recommendations Wiz detailed and there is no difference. The item #4 is the line that has me wondering if the thickness might be the problem. Like the rest of the manual it is not real clear what that means. I have timed or checked timing on single needle industrials and a double needle Judi 512(?) in my quest to find the right machine and never have had an issue like this. Material thickness never was a consideration until now. 
If the machine was set up for maximum thickness material or spongy material would that make a difference when trying to sew thinner, softer material. I haven’t tried a different leather or thread. Doing a search on thread range for this machine it doesn’t yield any clear results. I saw some of your replies to another owner so I think you own one and maybe have an idea of the thread range this machine will handle, if not maybe someone else will join in. 
I also think I saw you are a Camano man. A lot of my early days I fished and clammed the head and crabbed the west side before there were thousands of houses. Still have a couple of friends living there. Great memories. 
Thanks for your interest.

Fishbone

 OK.. I have a 146RB that I bought new about 22 years ago, A japan made, and Consew has made the 146RB for Loooong time, so it nothing less than a solid design straight/zigzag stitch industrial workhorse .
I still sew on this thing regularly several times a week. I am only one who has ever tuned it up every few years, and about the only thing I changed on it since bought, is a few new needle plates, and I did put a fresh new Hook/bobbin assembly in it . 
On the tune-up . If the machine stitching will move threw Strait and Zigzag stitch, both forward and reverse, and in all the SPI adjustments, Without dropping stitches in any. Then it Good To Go .

   I have a couple other machines that I will sew # 138 thread with . The 146RB, I Only Sewn using text 70 and 90 nylon thread with it since the day I bought it. It lays down nice stitches on about everything you feed threw under the feet with 70 and 90 like a champ.
BUT today .. I was curious about using #138 reading your problems. So today I stung it up with 138 to see if I notice anything obvious as your culprit . ( only using the straight Stitch ) not ZigZag stitch . The times I used 138 today it was always hit or miss on what your describing on the upper thread tension being constantly difficult to pull up a good centered knot . Sometimes the the knot was hidden, and sometimes it was sitting proud exposed when going threw some different bobbin and top tension adjustments.
 
  I don't exactly know what to tell you for a sure fix . The machine is heavy enough to handle 138 . ( I think ) if you wanting to it to sew 138, you can dedicate it to sew138 with the proper top thread tension adjustments . The machines top tension Definitely lacks the tension adjustment to do it properly . 146rb only has one tension disk assembly, It Is a little on the wimpy side for factory tension assembly, and factory tension, and disks spring ( for Sure ) is way to weak .
The Bobbin Case is GTG with using #138 thread size going threw and under the leaf spring and routed across threw the bobbin case back-cut .

  The Feed design of 146rb is, Drop-Feed/Walking Foot . it not Unison/triple feed . But that the nature of the beast if you want a combo straight/zigzag stitch machine . The 146RB does not have a big foot lift height, and the center needle foots 'needle hole'  is pretty big long and width . The Needle-Plate hole is the same with a wide long cut hole, It has to be because of being a Combo stitch . for leather I would bet  that be another problem, as you going to get a lot of bottom pucker with that big needle hole on the needle-plate, with needle and thread pushing material on the down stroke .

Also with Needles . I like to buy the ( Organ brand ) . The needle Scarf on Organ is cut long enough to take advantage of the full width of zigzag adjustment the 146 can give you . If you do sideXside comparison of different needles, the Scarf length will vary with the manufacture .
.

[ElFishbone]

Thanks for the info. I didn’t get a chance to try different thread or stretch the spring as Bob suggested, hopefully today.

What type of material are you usually sewing in your machine? What about threading? On the top pin do you use one hole or both? On the “L pin with 3 holes” do use all 3 holes? I have tried all the combos and it didn’t make a difference. My machine is also a green one serial #  114292, probably a very early one. It is in very excellent shape and shows only slight wear on the leading edge in front. It is setup with a Brother 803 servo and positioning system but the sensors are missing. It also had a pneumatic foot lift that I am still adjusting and waiting for a ac/dc converter card to get the 24v to run it. It runs very smooth and quiet and can be controlled to do 1 stitch at a time. I did not target the 146 it was aquired as an opportunity purchase, just like the other number of machines I have owned in my quest for that perfect machine.

I think I have gleaned every article and tube  on the net regarding the 146 and found the lack of info speaks to its short comings as far as leather goes. The basis for running 135 thread was on the description Consew and it’s retailers list in ads. 

• For stitching such products as boat and truck covers, tents, awnings, sails, parachutes, tarpaulins and similar products
• Used on such materials as canvas, nylon, vinyl, leather, synthetics and similar materials

My expectations were that if it handled heavy material as described it would also handle heavy thread that those materials typically require for strength. iiwii!

I think the needle plate is an ongoing issues that many users end up having to replace and when I was testing I turned the ZZ knob all the way to 10, (That’s as far as it would go) It stitched fine. When I locked the retaining knob top and bottom and hand turned the wheel the needle was deflected by the foot and may have struck the needle plate if I pushed it. At the least it would have bent the needle and struck the needle plate on the next stitch.

Does your machine max out on 10 on the ZZ or will it turn to 12?

Today I will try new material and thread and verify the machines limits.

Thanks 

Fishbone

 

[nylonRigging]

13 hours ago, ElFishbone said:

Thanks for the info. I didn’t get a chance to try different thread or stretch the spring as Bob suggested, hopefully today.

What type of material are you usually sewing in your machine? What about threading? On the top pin do you use one hole or both? On the “L pin with 3 holes” do use all 3 holes? I have tried all the combos and it didn’t make a difference. My machine is also a green one serial #  114292, probably a very early one. It is in very excellent shape and shows only slight wear on the leading edge in front. It is setup with a Brother 803 servo and positioning system but the sensors are missing. It also had a pneumatic foot lift that I am still adjusting and waiting for a ac/dc converter card to get the 24v to run it. It runs very smooth and quiet and can be controlled to do 1 stitch at a time. I did not target the 146 it was aquired as an opportunity purchase, just like the other number of machines I have owned in my quest for that perfect machine.

I think I have gleaned every article and tube  on the net regarding the 146 and found the lack of info speaks to its short comings as far as leather goes. The basis for running 135 thread was on the description Consew and it’s retailers list in ads. 

• For stitching such products as boat and truck covers, tents, awnings, sails, parachutes, tarpaulins and similar products
• Used on such materials as canvas, nylon, vinyl, leather, synthetics and similar materials

My expectations were that if it handled heavy material as described it would also handle heavy thread that those materials typically require for strength. iiwii!

I think the needle plate is an ongoing issues that many users end up having to replace and when I was testing I turned the ZZ knob all the way to 10, (That’s as far as it would go) It stitched fine. When I locked the retaining knob top and bottom and hand turned the wheel the needle was deflected by the foot and may have struck the needle plate if I pushed it. At the least it would have bent the needle and struck the needle plate on the next stitch.

Does your machine max out on 10 on the ZZ or will it turn to 12?

Today I will try new material and thread and verify the machines limits.

Thanks 

Fishbone

 

several questions asked ...
That particular machine has primarily only sewn 1-k denier Nylon and webbing it entire life .
. Like I said, I never used # 138 on it before only text 70 and 90 . Right now today me sewing on it, and not really trying hard to tune it for everyday running #138 . The way machine is normally setup with 135x17 22 needle, strung up with #138 on top and bobbin . It has ZERO problems handling 1-k Den. Nylon heavy Urethane backed, ( 8-layer stack ) with good looking stitches top and bottom using straight and Zigzag . I running a 750W servo with no speed reduction setup on that machine . Not trying to compare fabric to leathers, but multiple fold layers of quality Heavy denier Nylon weave with Urethane back, can start putting a machine threw some tough work .

. There really only 2 Hard drawback/limitations with the Consew 146RB . In It's design, it Can't stretch-out Big SPI length on the straight-stitch . . It is Very limited with what you can do for Feet Selection .
146RB is FAR from the your end search for 'perfect do all machine' . BUT.. I really see no reason you can't tune the machine for #138 , and then put it in a station to do certain specific jobs sewing Leather. It a good machine to have in your stable of collected machines.

. Threading - I put a tall thread-post on top and use 2 hole . and on the 3-hole L-bar in front i use all 3 holes for 2-wraps .

. You like pneumatic lifts ??  . I never really cared for them much, because it always 'all or nothing' with them when you engage, always a full lift with thread tension released . majority of the time sewing, I like to slightly knee lift not pushing the Disks Pin, and move material and not lose tension .

. on ZZ-width . It might do 12mm ??? . but I never measure it for MAX width . ( for me ) My needles Scarf determines my ZZ width . When I tune it, after I center the needle . I only pay attention to the Needle on the Right - Left stroke move . I pay extremely close attention to the Hook passing back and forth in relation to the top and bottom of the needles Scarf . So when I see the Hook get to near touching inside top/bottom edges of Scarf.. That Where I Lock it Down on the width . I don't like tapping the Hook on each end of the Scarf cut-out, as it just promotes excessive Hook wear in the long run.
So I Really Doubt, I am pushing the factory 12mm width advertisement propaganda ...LOL
.

[ElFishbone]

Thanks for you insights. And sorry for the barrage of questions.

I think I will share your dislike for the pneumatic lift. The reason I put it on was, the machine was missing most of the parts for the knee lift. The paddle was stationary with a on/off pedal attached to activate the solenoid for the ram. 
Most of the items I make only require a straight line and no turns, so making turns using the hand lift is not unreasonable.  Time will tell.

Today is a slow one so I’ll get to spend more time tuning as you suggest. Have a great day!

Fishbone