Cowboy CB4500 or SIECK type 441 K

[JustCurious]

Hey folks

 

I'm a complete rookie in this fascinating world of leather work so please bear with me. A couple of months ago I woke up with a inexplicable desire to make toolbelts for myself and my coworkers (carpenters). Never before have I even looked at a sewing machine. What do you guys think will be my best option if I wanna be sewing multiple layers of 12-14 oz. veg. tan leather? I'm not sure what the differences are between the two machines. The Cowboy seems to be a great choice but I can't seem to find any reviews on the model from SIECK. Maybe I need something completely different? 

 

Kind regards 

Kasper. 

 

[Burkhardt]

I've never heard of the Sieck brand before, I'm sure the more knowledgeable other people on here have. To me according to after looking up the site/brand the model doesn't match up with what actual 441's are. A CB4500 has a 16 1/2 in cylinder arm whereas the Siecko says it has a 270mm/10.63in.  They don't give a lot of other information.

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/sewing/arm-type-machines/?produkt=5562

[JustCurious]

When I asked SIECK for more information on their machine, I received this:  

The Cowboy costs 2950 euro while the SIECK costs only 1550 euro. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by JustCurious

[Constabulary]

The above info sheet seems to be from the original 441 manufacturer JUKI

The linked Sieck 441 K looks like the Cowboy CB 3200 and not like a CB 4500

Neither SIECK or COWBOY are manufacturer of sewing machines, they just put their own label (brand name) on Chinese made sewing machines and they are free to give them a name of their own choice.

The price on the SIECK website is w/o VAT - add 19% for German VAT.

[JustCurious]

I appreciate the responses. I think it's a lot of money to pay for a product from China when the "real deal" isn't that much higher priced   I guess I'll look for a used Juki then 

[DonInReno]

I’m a semi-retired carpenter and have used decent quality bags for 25 years.   You’ll really enjoy all the useful modifications you'll be able to do with a big machine.   I have a 441 clone and would recommend that size over anything smaller.

There are over a dozen 441 clones - I’d highly recommend a machine that you can get dealer support from easily.   As for a Juki - if you can afford it great, but you’d have to sew professionally for a number of years to start wearing out parts on any of the clones.

As you know we wear out stitching before the leather anywhere except the corners on bottoms of the bags, so the thicker the thread the better!  We also wear out thread so quickly there’s not a lot of benefit to us resistant polyester over nylon thread unless bags will be stored inside a car out in the open.

The number and variety of custom tool holders will keep you busy for months until you find the ones that fit your style - we all have a different set of favorite tools and once you can put them anywhere on or in your bags it takes a lot of trial and error, but you’ll be glad you did since it makes bags much more efficient.

If you’ve never tried one, a deep hammer pocket, made from heavy leather to keep its shape, totally changes how the hammer is stored - it’s faster, easier and the head is kept away from anything it might scratch during window/door install or finish work.  I like the shape to put the handle right at the hip bone pointed slightly rearward and within a few inches of the belt.

There’s so many cordless tools, my right main bag has turned into an extra deep bag  so drills or impacts just sit in there and I don’t have to worry about them falling out or scratching anything.   A sharp chisel, screwdriver, end cutting pliers, torpedo, etc can be mounted in the corners that don’t get in the way of the main bags.

A folding aluminum hook at belt level in front is a very useful third hand to hold a drill, nail gun, longer level, especially on ladders.

Im getting too off topic.  Lol

Anyway, once you have a big sewing machine and you’ll just rebuild bags as they wear out or you get a new idea, be prepared for thick synthetics working their way into your leather bags!   For two decades I swore I’d never have anything but xtra thick all leather bags and at one time had three sets - framing, finish, and electrical - but a sewing machine had me adding more and more synthetic parts and a light large framing bag works better for a lot of finish when working off ladders especially since everyone keeps a cordless impact close by.   My trim and woodwork bags have changed into a tool vest and two small nylon bags that clip on my pants belt.

Let us know what machine you end up with and how your projects work out!

Edit:    Definitely get a cylinder arm machine - many bulky, complicated and heavy leather or synthetic parts just can’t be flattened enough to be sewn on a flat bed.

Fall protection is much more of an issue for all carpenters nowadays with big complicated McMansion designs, and it’s more and more common for carpenters to have custom bags added to a good rope harness.  In the old days I’d just use a thin sport climbing half harness worn under work pants, but OSHA requires a full harness so why not use the structure to hold bag components to save weight and prevent clutter of using safety belt under proper tool bags.  It’s my understanding OSHA allows sewing accessories onto a harness as long as what you are adding doesn’t interfere with the functionality - at least they aren’t nit picking it.

Edited April 26, 2023 by DonInReno

[dikman]

I'm not sure how you got the idea that "the real deal" isn't much more expensive than the clones.

The reason the clones are so popular is because Juki's are expensive.

[PALeatherArt]

I bought a Juki TSC-441 (Cowboy 4500) clone from Sieck a few years ago. Worst experience I had with a company.

I'm french and they are German. So different countries. They sent me a picture of the machine I would get but I received a different one. It took me 3 months and a letter of formal notice for them to take it back and send me the correct machine.

Then I got scammed on the motor. I asked for an Efka motor to control the speed. Believe it or not, the servo motor I have (Simac SI561-2) doesn't allow acceleration or deceleration. You set a speed between 200 and 3000rpm and it will go instantly to that speed. Needless to say it's disgusting to use to sew leather as you can't slow down for curves or corners and speed up for straight lines. If you set 1000rpm, it only goes at a 1000rpm. I have to stop when arriving inna curve. Manually set it to 200rpm. Do the curve. Manually set it to a higher speed for the straight line, etc...

Then as they are in a different country they just stopped replying to email, going as far as telling me the secretary changed company and didn't work at Sieck anymore.

Do not buy from Sieck if you're not german. And preferably buy from your own country so you can physically go to your reseller to have your machine fixed or tuned. 

Sieck bad. Bad Sieck.