Machine for part time sail repair business

[Jeff96]

Background:

 I know that this is a leather worker's forum, but many of my google searches lead here, so I joined to ask some questions. 

I used to own a sailmaking business. Sold it, went back to school, work for the public sector now and I have less stress and more time for sailing. I used a Global 567 for triple step seaming as well as zigzag and straight stitch. I also had a Pfaff 138, which I used regularly so that I didn't have to reconfigure the Global as much. I also had a Singer 20U because I picked it up cheap, and used occasionally. I sold these machines with the business over 15 years ago.

A few years ago, I bought a Sailrite clone; Family Sew like this one; https://www.sewingmachinesplus.com/family-sew-fs288-sewing-machine.php for doing sail repairs on the side and some light canvas work. I'm enjoying doing these jobs on the side for friends and would like to have a side business. I'm finding the Family Sew  is not up to the job. Things will go well until I get into the corner reinforcement patch, then it starts skipping stitches, and I spend more time readjusting the machine than actually fixing the sail. I know that the machine has never been properly set up, but I suspect it will never be the right machine for the job. 

I know that an Adler or Bernina would be the best choice, but I can't justify the cost for what I'm going to be doing. So down the Alibaba rabbit hole I went. I'm well aware of the pitfalls of dealing with buying overseas, but I'm seeing the same machine at local shops for about double the price. I'm okay with spending time to learn about and properly tune the machine. 

When communicating with these companies, I find the contact people don't seem to know much about the machines, or perhaps it's the language barrier. In any event, I've identified two possible models Zoyer 3150e and the Zoyer 5300bh. Of course these models are replicated by other companies. I've created a spreadsheet showing my research so far...  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iuI8Dgx0jspAH9ky9b1lT5DJLbgRsISj6McUH7-Dbeg/edit?usp=sharing

What I'm looking for:

A 3 step zigzag machine for seams and patching sails. Able to sew into thick reinforcement patches without skipping. Normally using V92 thread. Minimum stitch width of 8mm. Ideally able to switch to normal zigzag and straight stitch. (The Zoyer machines seem to advertise many different stitch types for their machines, but I suspect that's from a preinstalled cam at the factory) Spend $1000ish Canadian.

If I can't get a machine that can switch stitch types, I can get my old Pfaff 138 back at a cheap price, though I don't know what it's been through over the past decade. 

Questions:

1. The 5300 appears to be a clone of a Toyota D530. Can anyone point me to documentation on this machine?

2. Is the 3150 a clone of a known brand of machine? I'm hoping to find more documentation to see if these machines are suitable for the job. pictures of the two machines are below...

3. Is there other models I should be looking at given the preferences above? Are they realistic given the budget?

 

 

 

 

[MtlBiker]

@Jeff96 - My two cents says that you're not going to find a suitable machine for your budget of $1,000 Canadian.  A cheap clone just won't do the trick and you're likely to end up in the same place as you did with the cheap Sailrite clone you bought.  There's little doubt that the genuine Sailrite LSZ-1 is made a lot better and has better quality control and machined parts than the clones.  But one of those will cost you way over your budget.  I have an LSZ-1 Premium with their WorkerB servo motor and I love it, but even if I were to sell it, it would be quite a bit over your budget also.  Your best bet might be to get your old Pfaff 138 back and even if you had to put a little money into maintenance, it would be more cost effective than anything new that would be a solid performer.  I certainly wouldn't suggest you buy a Zoyer (never heard of it) because quality certainly wouldn't be equal to a genuine Sailrite and service/support would be pretty much non-existent.  

[Jeff96]

49 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

@Jeff96 - My two cents says that you're not going to find a suitable machine for your budget of $1,000 Canadian.  A cheap clone just won't do the trick and you're likely to end up in the same place as you did with the cheap Sailrite clone you bought.  There's little doubt that the genuine Sailrite LSZ-1 is made a lot better and has better quality control and machined parts than the clones.  But one of those will cost you way over your budget.  I have an LSZ-1 Premium with their WorkerB servo motor and I love it, but even if I were to sell it, it would be quite a bit over your budget also.  Your best bet might be to get your old Pfaff 138 back and even if you had to put a little money into maintenance, it would be more cost effective than anything new that would be a solid performer.  I certainly wouldn't suggest you buy a Zoyer (never heard of it) because quality certainly wouldn't be equal to a genuine Sailrite and service/support would be pretty much non-existent.  

Yes, I'm pretty sure the Pfaff is going to come back to me. Neither it or the LSZ-1 will do the 3 step zigzag however. In most sails, 3 step zigzag doesn't have to go into the heavier stuff, so if I have another machine for thicker materials, the 3 step machine doesn't have to be "Adler quality" The Family Sew has done surprisingly well and it will still be useful. I just looked at the documentation for the LSZ-1, and I can see that there's some tuning I can do to get it back to its old self. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Jeff96

[Tejas]

Don't know the price, but spec-wise a Global 217 ZZ-3S might be satisfactory. I had a Bernina 217 with a cam-reader and a four-point three-step zig-zag cam that was quite wonderful.

https://globalsew.com/product/zz-217-series/

Edited August 11, 2023 by Tejas

[Northmount]

Moved to leather sewing machines

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, Tejas said:

Don't know the price, but spec-wise a Global 217 ZZ-3S might be satisfactory. I had a Bernina 217 with a cam-reader and a four-point three-step zig-zag that was quite wonderful.

https://globalsew.com/product/zz-217-series/

I was curious, so I looked at that machine.  Funny that the specs don't mention whether or not it's a walking foot (or compound feed) machine.  Is it possible that it's just feed dog feed?  I mean, even the Sailrite has a walking foot.  And I'd imagine that several layers of Dacron in a sail would really need at least a walking foot, preferably compound triple feed.

[kgg]

@Jeff96 I would either get your old PFAFF 138 back or buy a used one rather then going with the Zoyer machine. Doing a quick search on Kijiji in Ontario shows two used ones available ( https://www.kijiji.ca/v-other-home-appliance/mississauga-peel-region/used-pfaff-industrial-sewing-machine/1668649324 ) for $200 Cad and ( https://www.kijiji.ca/v-hobbies-craft/gatineau/pfaff-138-6-sewing-machine/1649347146 ) for $450. Just on the surface the $200 one seems to be in better shape. The problem with the PFAFF's in general is parts availability and cost of replacement parts.

[Jeff96]

I messaged the guy with the Pfaff. They're a great machine at a fire sale price. I'll keep an eye out for a 3 step machine to complement it. 

[Jeff96]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

I was curious, so I looked at that machine.  Funny that the specs don't mention whether or not it's a walking foot (or compound feed) machine.  Is it possible that it's just feed dog feed?  I mean, even the Sailrite has a walking foot.  And I'd imagine that several layers of Dacron in a sail would really need at least a walking foot, preferably compound triple feed.

I don't think I've seen a walking foot at a professional sail loft. We didn't have one at Sobstad Sailmakers and I didn't have one, and I made some pretty big sails. A feed roller is much more desirable for sails

[Jeff96]

3 hours ago, Tejas said:

Don't know the price, but spec-wise a Global 217 ZZ-3S might be satisfactory. I had a Bernina 217 with a cam-reader and a four-point three-step zig-zag cam that was quite wonderful.

https://globalsew.com/product/zz-217-series/

I emailed to request a quote, but I think they'll blow the budget out of the water. 

I understand you get what you pay for, but I don't want to work all my time off to pay for a machine 

[dikman]

I don't know how it compares in Canada (I'm in Australia) but when I looked at buying a 441 clone from China I found the prices were very good but by the time I added on all the other costs - shipping, duties, taxes, various handling costs, broker fees etc - there were no savings to be made, the cost was the same as buying one here. And shipping-wise we are closer to China than Canada is!

Plus any guarantee/warranty is also pretty useless, you'll be basically on your own.

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Jeff96 said:

I understand you get what you pay for, but I don't want to work all my time off to pay for a machine 

That's the catch 22 part of getting the right machine. Depending on much work you want to take on or how long you want to continue on doing those projects buying the right machine that will do the job better or faster I think is the way to go. If you don't have the proper equipment simple things can become major hassles. Buying clone equipment without dealer support can become a nightmare should you need parts or support down the road. Then it's the resale value to to consider. A relatively unknown clone machine will not command anywhere near the same price as a brand name machine. 

1 hour ago, dikman said:

I don't know how it compares in Canada (I'm in Australia) but when I looked at buying a 441 clone from China I found the prices were very good but by the time I added on all the other costs - shipping, duties, taxes, various handling costs, broker fees etc - there were no savings to be made, the cost was the same as buying one here.

Basically the same. The shipping cost depending on size and weight can run about the same cost as what you paid for the machine when you are just purchasing one of's. Then add in the duties and brokerage fees and the 13 percent tax on top of everything.

kgg

[MtlBiker]

15 hours ago, Jeff96 said:

I don't think I've seen a walking foot at a professional sail loft. We didn't have one at Sobstad Sailmakers and I didn't have one, and I made some pretty big sails. A feed roller is much more desirable for sails

Thanks for that.  I believe you but I would have never imagined that a compound walking foot wouldn't be really desired for the multiple layers of sail material.

 

[Jeff96]

4 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Thanks for that.  I believe you but I would have never imagined that a compound walking foot wouldn't be really desired for the multiple layers of sail material.

 

The layers are taped together with basting tape, so it all goes through as a single piece