Stitching questions

[Hilly]

I'm finally catching on to hand stitching - making nice, even stitches that look good except for the thread tends to turn this dirty grey color when I snug the stitches down. My hands are clean, my work area is clean, my thread is clean, so why the ugly color? I am currently using prewaxed linen thread sold by Tandy. It can't be just the nature of the thread, as I see all kinds of stitching on these boards that look pristine white.

I am considering buying a "spool" of Barbours linen in white also one in black, but it's so expensive, and the hobby budget is in trouble right now.

Also, can someone recommend good overall thread sizes for hand stitching different sized projects? The thread I have seems too heavy for small items, and just right on other items. Probably would look too skimpy on larger items... I realize it's most likely a matter of preference, but you just don't want to stitch up a knife sheath with rope, or sew a harness with a silk thread.

Another question for all you hand sewing people... I'm making mostly holsters at the present, and I started out trying to use regular needles, and found they just don't work for sewing leather. The eyes break out about every other stitch, and I was forever changing needles. I finally got some harness needles. They last like iron, but they are so thick, that I can't push or pull them through my awl holes w/out a needle nose pliers (plus tendonitis and arthritis in my hands bothers me). Is there another needle available which gives the best of both worlds? Smaller diameter yet very strong?

One last question for now... Can someone please recommend a source for linen thread that won't break the bank?

Thanks,

Hilly

Edited February 13, 2008 by Hilly

[abn]

Hilly, regarding your first question, I've noticed the same thing when using pre-waxed nylon thread. My guess is that a really tight stitch allows the leather below to be seen through the thread. I've been able to restore that pristine white color by running an overstitching wheel over my stitching. It seems to loosen things up a little and restore the right tension... Maybe that would help you, too?

[Johanna]

Hilly- I like "glovers needles" for handsewing. They are slightly thinner than harness needles, but still sturdy and have a very sharp point that allows them to glide through the awl holes. I'm curious to see what everyone has to say about "dirty thread".

Johanna

[Hilly]

abn: Thanks for the suggestion. I just tried it, and it did not seem to make any/much difference. But my stitches look really neat.

Johanna: I will see if I can get a hold of some glover's needles and give them a go. I hope they work easier on my hands than the harness needles! Thank you.

[Randy Cornelius]

I will give you my take of pre waxed thread, it most of the time is "waxed" with a silicone based product that is allowing the natural coloring of the leather to rub off on the thread as you sew. Not sure what kind of leather you are useing but that would be my guess. Try using a good quality nylon or polyester thread and wax it yourself with bees wax. Bees Wax will naturaly seal the thread and hopefuly stop whatever is rubbing off on your thread. I have used prewaxed thread before but buy it from another source.

How to wax thread is in the Stolhman books but here it is. Double the length of thread over something, a hook or nail. Take your beeswax and rub both the top and bottom of the thread briskly. then take a piece of brown paper bag and rub the threads to melt the wax into and burnish the threads. You are now ready to sew.

Randy

[pete]

Hilly- I don't know why you are having trouble. Are you pushing the awl through enough( both pieces) or just making a pinprick to mark the hole.

I bought some egg eye harness needles in the 70's. I use them to sew lots of cases and covers(4/5-8/9 oz.) and haven't needed pliers to pull the needle.

I do rub them with some 2000 grit sandpaper before I start though- makes them smoother.Some of them are actually rusty after 30+ years of non-use!!!

pete

ps- I have a CS Osborne from Hidecrafters. I just polished it up a bit on 2000 grit and I poke the hole all the way thorough- leaves plenty of room for the needle to pass

Edited February 13, 2008 by pete

[Hilly]

Hilly- I don't know why you are having trouble. Are you pushing the awl through enough( both pieces) or just making a pinprick to mark the hole.

I bought some egg eye harness needles in the 70's. I use them to sew lots of cases and covers(4/5-8/9 oz.) and haven't needed pliers to pull the needle.

I do rub them with some 2000 grit sandpaper before I start though- makes them smoother.Some of them are actually rusty after 30+ years of non-use!!!

pete

Hi Pete.

I am pushing the awl all the way to the haft, through both layers of 8-9oz. leather. I even give it about a 1/8 twist to open the hole a bit more. I don't want to twist any more for fear of making a gaping hole in the leather. I often put the tip of my harness needle into beeswax to help it slide through better. The needles are still tight going through the leather. I'm using a regular awl with a diamond tip blade. The kind intended for stabbing stitching holes. The same kind as you stated in your post.

It could be that I have lost much of my pinching strenght (as in pinching a needle between thumb and fingers) in my hand due to tendon surgery, or it could be the touch of arthritis in my hands. Either way, I find it difficult to grasp and pull the harness needles through the leather without the aid of pliers. Maybe something in my technique is wrong?

I plan on visiting the leather show in April, so I can talk to other's there, and possibly learn something by watching.

Maybe there are different sized harness needles? Tandy offers only 2 sizes. Fat and fatter, it would seem.

I've ordered some glover's needles to see if it helps any.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Hilly

[esantoro]

Hi Pete.

I am pushing the awl all the way to the haft, through both layers of 8-9oz. leather. I even give it about a 1/8 twist to open the hole a bit more. I don't want to twist any more for fear of making a gaping hole in the leather. I often put the tip of my harness needle into beeswax to help it slide through better. The needles are still tight going through the leather. I'm using a regular awl with a diamond tip blade. The kind intended for stabbing stitching holes. The same kind as you stated in your post.

It could be that I have lost much of my pinching strenght (as in pinching a needle between thumb and fingers) in my hand due to tendon surgery, or it could be the touch of arthritis in my hands. Either way, I find it difficult to grasp and pull the harness needles through the leather without the aid of pliers. Maybe something in my technique is wrong?

I plan on visiting the leather show in April, so I can talk to other's there, and possibly learn something by watching.

Maybe there are different sized harness needles? Tandy offers only 2 sizes. Fat and fatter, it would seem.

I've ordered some glover's needles to see if it helps any.

Glover's needles are very sharp and are for piercing much lighter leathers. Siegel of California and Ohio Travel Bags both have harness needles in various thicknesses.

[Hilly]

I will give you my take of pre waxed thread, it most of the time is "waxed" with a silicone based product that is allowing the natural coloring of the leather to rub off on the thread as you sew. Not sure what kind of leather you are useing but that would be my guess. Try using a good quality nylon or polyester thread and wax it yourself with bees wax. Bees Wax will naturaly seal the thread and hopefuly stop whatever is rubbing off on your thread. I have used prewaxed thread before but buy it from another source.

How to wax thread is in the Stolhman books but here it is. Double the length of thread over something, a hook or nail. Take your beeswax and rub both the top and bottom of the thread briskly. then take a piece of brown paper bag and rub the threads to melt the wax into and burnish the threads. You are now ready to sew.

Randy

Hi Randy.

I was almost wondering if I couldn't use parrafin wax? It would serve the same purpose as beeswax, and I have boxes of the stuff in my canning supplies. Maybe the "leather color" wouldn't rub off on it as much as bees wax?

Actually, I've been thinking that possibly the color change in the prewaxed thread is due to the amount of wax the manufacturer uses, and it compresses when you pull the stitches down, making it look darker? At any rate, I don't like the look of it. The only alternative I can think of is to use the brown or black prewaxed, or shelling out $$$$$$ and buying rolls of unwaxed linen, and waxing it myself.

I have considered using a poly thread, and probably will on small items, however I find the look of the heavier linen thread attractive on larger projects. I do have a industrial walking foot sewing machine with leather needles for smaller projects such as checkbook covers, wallets, etc. I do love the hand stitched look on my western style holsters, and that's something you just don't get with thin poly thread.

[Johanna]

Oh, Hilly- make sure you say "Hi" to me in April at the show! I'm so excited to get to put faces to names of friends!

Ed- You're right, glovers needles are intended to pierce lighter weight leathers, and yes, they are very sharp. They do work great for handstitching, though, and are easier to use than a sharpened harness needle.

I'm guessing Hilly and I have similar problems sewing because we lack regular hand strength. Sewing with pliers takes up time, and it's awkward. Hilly, are you stabbing the hole with the awl, sewing a stitch, stabbing, sewing, or are you poking all your holes ahead of time? Some leathers seem to want to close faster than others, so if you can get into the habit of using the awl while sewing, that might help.

Johanna

[Rawhide]

Hilly,

I think it's the pre waxed thread. I posted this exact same problem back before the crash of 07. I have since switched to barbour's cord, and have not had a problem since. You can pull as hard as you like, and the cord won't seem dirty.

Marlon

[Hilly]

Oh, Hilly- make sure you say "Hi" to me in April at the show! I'm so excited to get to put faces to names of friends!

Will do!

Ed- You're right, glovers needles are intended to pierce lighter weight leathers, and yes, they are very sharp. They do work great for handstitching, though, and are easier to use than a sharpened harness needle.

I'm guessing Hilly and I have similar problems sewing because we lack regular hand strength. Sewing with pliers takes up time, and it's awkward. Hilly, are you stabbing the hole with the awl, sewing a stitch, stabbing, sewing, or are you poking all your holes ahead of time? Some leathers seem to want to close faster than others, so if you can get into the habit of using the awl while sewing, that might help.

Johanna

Johanna, I stab one hole at a time, and then put in a stitch. Takes forEVER, but it's the best I can manage. I just think my hands are getting pretty bad.

[Hilly]

Hilly,

I think it's the pre waxed thread. I posted this exact same problem back before the crash of 07. I have since switched to barbour's cord, and have not had a problem since. You can pull as hard as you like, and the cord won't seem dirty.

Marlon

Thanks, Marlon.

Can you give me an idea of what the different cord counts are good for? I noticed that there's 3,4,5,6 & 7 cord. Also, different twists - left and right (but we won't worry about that now).

http://campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/index...e2d4987195ad393

I'm looking for the sizes to do, say, knife sheats, holsters, notebooks/photo albums, brief cases, wallets, etc. I don't want to buy a spool for $45, to find it's not the size I want. What size do you normally use, and what do you use it on the most? And where do you buy yours, and how much does it cost?

Thanks,

Hilly

[JRedding]

Hilly, Don't know if it helps and it sounds like what I do is highly irregular, I avoid having difficulty hand sewing by matching my needle size to the thread I'm using, and my awl size to the needle I'm using. Think of setting up to hand sew similiar to setting up a sewing machine, with matching components, the thread has to fit the project it's intended for and the needle and awl have to be an appropriate size so the thread passes through with no more difficulty than a machine would contend with. Occasionaly a needle hangs up and pliers are needed but if every stitch requires them something is making it hard on you. I think what I do that's irregular is I don't hand sew with heavy waxed thread if it's going to be seen, I sew with the same thread I use in my sewing machine, the reason, I use it is I handsew horns and cantles on my saddles and I don't like it if you can tell the difference between the machine stitch and the handsewn, that's what I strive for anyway. Sewing machines don't use waxed thread, and no one questions the durability or quality of a good machine stitch so why use it to handsew, a two needle handsewn stitch is probably a stronger stitch than a loop type stitch a machine uses so why not use the same thread as you'd feed a machine. I'll probably catch some flack about this but I just looked at it one day and thought "you'll never make it look as good as a machine can do if you keep using that big ugly thread" so I quit, that was many years and several hundred saddles a go and it's stood the test of time. Just how I do it, maybe it'll help somehow

[ETW Grumpy]

I get waxed Irish linen thread here:

http://www.royalwoodltd.com/cat14-17ar.htm

I use the 4 ply for wallets and the like. I make my wallet backs out of 8 oz and the 4 ply works well. It's $11.50 a spool. I have yet to use a whole spool of one color.

I also find that sometimes I have to use needle nose pliers to pull the harness needles through.

Hope this helps.

[Timbo]

Hey Hilly, here's a thought, I was just on Brettuns Village website and saw this, but they have a pack of multi-purpose household needles for 4.00. There are alot of different needles in the pack and you could order a couple and then if you really like them order more. But one of the types of needles included are the curved mattress needles. Here's my thought: If you can get most of the curve thru the hole it might be easier for you to pull thru as you won't have to have so much grip on the needle. You might even be able to grasp it with the crook of your thumb and pull it on thru. One other though would be if grasping it with your thumb and pulling thru works, you could cut the thumb off of a leather glove and wear it for a little more grip on the needle. (or don't waste a good glove and make your own, it's kinda what we do ain't it??)

It's just a thought and I thought of your thread when I saw them.

By the way, if it works, I'm pretty sure Osborne makes them too and they would be a better quality. They also make 'S' curved needles that could work for you as well.

Tim

[Warren]

Hilly,when I sew I put the backside needle through first and pull it out of the awl hole. Then I put the frontside needle into the hole just enough so it won't fall out. On the top of my awl handle I have a small indention. I place this against the needle and use the awl handle to push the needle as far as possible through the leather, then grab it on the other side and pull it out. It's similar to using a sewing palm and I don't have to switch the needles from one hand to the other as much. It really sped up my sewing when I started doing it this way. Hope this helps.

Warren

[Rawhide]

Hilly,

I use a number 5 cord for just about everything. The twists\ identifies which way it's twisted together, but that only matters if you are using it in a sewing machine. I think Left twist is for most sewing machines. I've had really good success with this cord. Now if I can just get my stitches to look uniform, I'll be in business. By the way. I bought mine from Campbell too. It comes in a spool of almost 1100 yards. That's probably enough for my lifetime.

Marlon

[barra]

Please forgive me if I cover what someone else has said. I'm going cross eyed after a 16 hr shift..

To easily form nicely laid down stitches it is imperative to match the size of the thread with the needle and the awl blade used to the needle. IE: only use an awl that has a blade large enough to make the hole large enough for your needle. No smaller and you will be using needle nosed pliers each stitch and any larger it will look unsightly.

When I was learning to hand sew on Gig harness traces and each trace is 5' 6", and has 4 rows at 8 to the inch, my boss filed a little grove on the top of the awl ferrule so that if I kept the little grove uppermost then the awl blade was at the correct angle. Try and not push the awl completely thru as the haft/ferrule can leave an unwarranted indentation in your leather. Also try and not twist the awl blade after you have pushed it thru in an effort to make the needle go thru easier. The reason you should not do this is because it defeats the purpose of using the diamond awl blade and makes the hole round and not diamond shaped. You will not lay your stitches down with that angled look that is indicative of good hand stitching.

Someone mentioned burnishing the bees wax with brown paper (lunch bags or grocery bags are fine). This is a good idea. The brown paper can also be used periodically as you sew (it helps clean up manky threads that get dirty just from the oils in your hands)

Save the dirty lump of beeswax for your brown/black threads and keep a nice clean block for white thread. I use old fly spray can lids as wax molds. (beware some lids have a little hole in them so line the bottom with cooking foil. I find this makes a nice sized ball of wax for my sized hand.

for some extra grip you can get those little rubber finger thimbles that bank tellers use to count bank notes or just cut the thumbs and index fingers off a pair of old rubber dish washing gloves. The little rubber thimble will help your grip.

I too have little indentations in all my awl handle that I can use to push the needle most of the way thru.

The most common harness egg eye needles I am aware of come from a company called john james and come in various sizes.

Barbours is probably the most common brand of linen thread. The rolls of thread come in various cord sizes. You will see 3 cord, 4 cord, 5 cord etc. Now to really confuse things, each of those cord sizes also has a correspoding ticket number. As an example you may have a roll of 3 cord "ticket 18" and then have a roll of 3 cord ticket 25. Both are 3 cord as both have 3 individual plys twisted together to make the final thread but on the 3 cord ticket 25, the 3 yarns used to twist up the final thread are finer than if it was 3 cord ticket 18. In other words, the higher the ticket number the thinner the thread.

As a saddler and harness maker it was common to use 3 cord ticket 25 on most bridle work. On items like a headcollar/halter a 4 cord was used. When you hand stitch something the finished item has to be strong but the thread used must not be overly big. As an example the pre waxed threads you get in most leathercraft kits are waaaaay bigger than needed. Overly thick thread looks unprofessional.

I would say a 4 cord would be fine for most holster applications. You may already be doing what I will now add but I have added it just in case your not. When you thread your needles, get your knife and drag the blade accross the thread to taper of some of the fibres. make nice long tapers and then wax. Pierce the needle thru the thread an inch or so back from your nice fine (now waxed) taper, slide the thread up to the eye of the needle and pass the tapered thread thru as far as it will go. Pull up on the needle and you will have formed sort of a larks head knot. You can now tow the Queen Mary and the needle won't come off. This avoids having a large bump of thread that is larger than your needle that you are trying to pull thru you awl hole.

I know some people who hand stitch and don't use needles at all. Taper/wax and stick a drop of super glue on the end of your thread. When set, stitch away.

I hope I made sense and did not waffle too much. As said 16 hr day.

Barra

Edited February 14, 2008 by barra

[Hilly]

I would like to take the time to say thank you to all of you that replied. I have learned a bit, and that's what's so great about these forums, and the people that post here. I never expected all of the responses I have gotten, and that just shows what caring and thoughtful people you all are.

Have a great day,

Hilly

Happy Valentines Day, everyone!

[bcurrier]

As an FYI, beeswax is available refined. Refined beeswax is white. The cakes they sell for sewing is typically pretty low-end stuff and is basically dirty.

Bill

[tazzmann]

ok, maybe I missed it, but where does one get the refined beeswax?

[Hilly]

A quick trip to Google provided this:

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&amp...G=Google+Search

[bcurrier]

Sorry, I should have mentioned sources. You can get refined beeswax from honey industry suppliers. Dadant is the largest and carries it. Check their online catalog.

www.dadant.com

Another source would be 100% beeswax, WHITE candles. Typically beeswax candles go for more than they should based on cost of materials, though (in my opinion). Then again, what retailers ask for an ounce or two of yellow beeswax is obscene, too.

Bill

[barra]

In Australia you can also get decent beeswax from the wood finishes section of the local harware (near all the timber stains etc). I assume it would also be available in US hardware stores the same. The big chain ones like Lowes or Home depot would be more inclined to have it as opposed to the little guy but I like to try Ma and Pa stores first. It comes in little clear plastic containers like they use to sell pre prepared salads from the supermarket deli section.

Also do a search of your yellow pages for Apiarists.

Barra

Edited February 15, 2008 by barra