Mineral oil bad for leather? Or good? Or neutral?

[dikman]

Ballistol is basically highly refined mineral oil, what today is called pharmaceutical-grade as in baby oil, with a couple of extras added in minor amounts (mainly to make it smell nice!). It is an interesting exercise to look up the MSDS for various commercial leather-care products, many of them use the term "natural products" but then use mineral oil (I guess it depends how you define "natural" ). 

I'm guessing that for these manufacturers it's easier and cheaper to get bulk supplies of this oil than to source large quantities of neatsfoot oil, mink oil etc, plus it would be easier to get the soft consistency they want for their products. I found one product that, once I chased up the MSDS, appeared to be using hydraulic fluid, which is also a highly refined oil available in various viscosities. This, by the way, is also what is used for Lily White sewing machine oil because supposedly it doesn't stain material being sewn.

[fredk]

9 hours ago, SUP said:

Could motor oil have other additives perhaps that cause the damage?

Maybe

This is THE forum for US to experiment and check these things out. To  get to the truth. Even the tanneries will only repeat what is said by the greater un-washed

There is a discussion type which I call a circular-argument. It goes like this; I read it in a book, I put it up on an internet forum, someone else reads the forum and puts it in a magazine, I read the magazine and I know I'm right because I read it in a book and a magazine.

Thats how a lot of these myths become perpetual

I've thought of something. My Austin 7 car was built in December 1930. In its drive system is an item we call 'the donut', aka  a fabric coupling

(rear wheel drive BMW cars use something similar in looks)

I have an original one from 1929. Originals are made of laminations of heavy fabric/canvas and leather, all tightly compressed and held together by those triangular plates. I know its from 1929 as the date on manufacture is stamped on one of those plates, That was retired as the rivets on one plate set ripped out during a race. Anyway, servicing of this item was to take it off at regular mileage intervals and apply some light engine oil to it to keep it supple. Not to soak it in oil, just a small amount

I can say that when it came off a few years ago it was 87 years old and neither the leather nor canvas showed any signs of rot or deterioration.

Another; the Austin engine was fully overhauled in 1984. I did it again in 2004. Inside the engine are some oil seal gaskets made of oil impregnated leather. They are in constant saturation with the engine oil. None of those gaskets were being destroyed by the engine oil. They were changed because they were too compressed to re-use

[SUP]

@dikman exactly what I think too. Companies will go for what is cheapest. 

And Mineral oil is  obtained  fossil fuel, therefore organic or 'natural'. That is what those companies  probably mean. And fool a the majority of their consumers.

@fredk WOW! Your Austin will be a 100 soon!  Pics please, if possible of this car?

Back to topic,  You are perfectly right. Tanneries and most everyone else will parrot what is online. 

And from your experience,  engine oil does not damage leather. So mineral oil should be fine too.

@TomE's and  @sheathmaker's experiences show that neatsfoot oil, used judiciously, is also good for leather and not does not damage it.

SO mineral oil and neatsfoot oil are good possibilities for use in conditioners. Both evidently do not do any damage.

I wonder if there are any labs doing some sort of research work on the effects of other oils on leather.

Vegetable oils, I am a little concerned about. By their very nature, they are not meant to have a long life  or survive differences in temperature; how long do coconuts or avocadoes or olives survive anyway? In contrast, cattle have longer lives and are warm-bodied. I'm probably talking through my hat though. I feel there will be someone or the other telling me so, usually kindly. 

You have a good idea  @fredk  Maybe as many people as possible could talk about their experiences here, rather than hearsay off the internet, about the effects of different oils on leathers, in different conditions. A repository, so to speak.

 

 

 

 

[fredk]

7 minutes ago, SUP said:

I wonder if there are any labs doing some sort of research work on the effects of other oils on leather.

I doubt it very much. Research is money led. Only when something is affecting a big company's profits do they research & develop. No one is fussed about leather - just use the same ole thing we've used for centuries, it works, it will work, don't change it. Its not just in the leather industry but in other fields as well

11 minutes ago, SUP said:

Vegetable oils, I am a little concerned about. By their very nature, they are not meant to have a long life  or survive differences in temperature; how long do coconuts or avocadoes or olives survive anyway?

Jars of olive oil from about & over 3000 years ago exist and the oil is/was still good, In good airtight sealed containers veggie oils will last a very long time, hundreds of years. Once opened their life is in months. But NFO can go bad in time as well. Petroleum based mineral oils do not go rancid

Just, do NOT use chicken fat or grease, without refining it maybe - in my history presentation group a chap brought me his belt pouch. It was well dried out and needed NFO. But he insisted I use fresh chicken fat/grease as 'thats what they would have used in medieval times' (uh, no, they used a version of NFO) about 3 months later he brought the pouch back to me, in a sealed plastic bag. Could I clean it? The chicken fat had gone rancid and was rotting the leather. I tried to clean it but it was too far gone. Ever smell rotting chicken? its F**king awful and sickening. That pouch was burnt by the owner

34 minutes ago, SUP said:

You have a good idea  @fredk  Maybe as many people as possible could talk about their experiences here, rather than hearsay off the internet, about the effects of different oils on leathers, in different conditions. A repository, so to speak.

We'll start. When I'm out shopping next I'll get some 'Baby oil' and vaseline. I have virgin olive oil. I'm not currently working on anything that needs oiled but soon I will be

 

1 hour ago, fredk said:

There is a discussion type which I call a circular-argument. It goes like this; I read it in a book, I put it up on an internet forum, someone else reads the forum and puts it in a magazine, I read the magazine and I know I'm right because I read it in a book and a magazine.

Thats how a lot of these myths become perpetual

One other myth which is perpetuated on the internet is that 'ready rivets' are not strong. In my experience it is the opposite. Years ago when I was on facebooky, I asked a few of these peeps who said the rivets were not strong. None of them had used them. General answer was; 'I won't use them because I read they aren't strong.. . .'

 

[SUP]

@fredk unfortunately, you are right about the reasons for research. 

About the olive oil, exactly. Exposure to air.. and leather is not going to be kept air-tight! 

SO great. I will try as well. I have plenty of scraps I can use.

I have coconut oil, both fractionated and cold pressed. I know the cold pressed goes rancid fast if exposed to air. So will not use that. I know how it smells. YUCK! Will check the fractionated. Use it on veg tanned leather and keep it outside, in a warm place for a week to 10 days, reapplying if it gets too dry. Let's see what happens. Cold pressed coconut oil gets smelly in a few hours. I suspect this will too. People use fractionated coconut oil in their hair as an after wash conditioner - you can smell it from a distance.

[fredk]

55 minutes ago, SUP said:

SO great. I will try as well. I have plenty of scraps I can use.

Use it on veg tanned leather and keep it outside, in a warm place for a week to 10 days, reapplying if it gets too dry. Let's see what happens. 

Okee-doakly. I'll use some scrap as well and put it out in my spare 'drying' car

Now, both of us should try our choice of oils on some different pieces of leather.

i.e.  use oils 1, 2, 3 on leather A, and on B, and on C,, that would be 9 test pieces. 

Keep notes

Lets keep to just a few common oils. Keeps it all simpler

Conditions here are very wet and getting cold.In my spare car it will be warmer, and variable. I expect conditions for you are quite different

Edited September 20, 2023 by fredk

[TomE]

One knock against vegetable oils and olive oil is they attract rodents at least for tack stored in a barn. I would also consider lanolin as a vehicle for fats/waxes in a conditioner.
 

Aussie conditioner and Effax Leder Balsam cause very little discoloration in comparison to Bick 4 or Black Rock Leather-N-Rich in my experience. 

[Burkhardt]

3 hours ago, SUP said:

Vegetable oils, I am a little concerned about

That's all I use. My snuff holder I made about 10 years ago is only oiled with veg oil and is just fine

[Burkhardt]

7 minutes ago, TomE said:

One knock against vegetable oils and olive oil is they attract rodents at least for tack stored in a barn. I would also consider lanolin as a vehicle for fats/waxes in a conditioner.
 

Aussie conditioner and Effax Leder Balsam cause very little discoloration in comparison to Bick 4 or Black Rock Leather-N-Rich in my experience. 

To say that rodents chew on leather because of olive or veg oil is a little far fetched. They also chew on wood and just about any coated wire without any scent. Humans are on the bottom of the smelling chart and when you walk into a leather shop everyone says it smells so good without any oil added to make it smell better. I think anything new or a fresh smell will attract rodents with or without oil.

[fredk]

20 minutes ago, TomE said:

One knock against vegetable oils and olive oil is they attract rodents at least for tack stored in a barn. 

I had a big roll of leathers damaged by meeces. They got into the very centre of the roll and chewed through several layers for to make their nests. Holes the size of a woman's fist right through each hide. None of that leather had any treatment at all. And they'd pee'd on it as well