Mineral oil bad for leather? Or good? Or neutral?

[kgg]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

About mice.

What a lot of RVers use to deter mice is use bounty dryer sheets. Before using them spring always brought a surprise after the winter and not a pleasant one. No matter what I done the little buggers would get in and destroy something in either the engine bay or inside the RV. The solution was the bounty dryer sheets and laying them everywhere, in cupboards, under seats, glove box, engine bay, under carriage storage, etc. The end result was no more mice just normal spring cleanup before the next trip.

kgg

[SUP]

@kgg and better smelling too.

[billybopp]

41 minutes ago, kgg said:

What a lot of RVers use to deter mice is use bounty dryer sheets. Before using them spring always brought a surprise after the winter and not a pleasant one. No matter what I done the little buggers would get in and destroy something in either the engine bay or inside the RV. The solution was the bounty dryer sheets and laying them everywhere, in cupboards, under seats, glove box, engine bay, under carriage storage, etc. The end result was no more mice just normal spring cleanup before the next trip.

kgg

Rodents HATE the smell of peppermint as well - they make a peppermint oil-based rodent repellent that you can buy, even ....   Sometimes it's the simple things!

- Bill

[chuck123wapati]

To think the effects of various oils on leather has never been considered is silly, its been studied for centuries,  you just have to look for the research its a multi billion dollar industry. Here is one i found in about ten minutes. I will add you will have to find old studies for reliable information, any new info will be tainted by the climate change agenda so I'm sure fossil fuel derived oils will not be on the top ten list in any new publication.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339328369_Leather_and_Textile_Uses_of_Fats_and_Oils

I have more but my links were dropped when i re-set my box. 

[fredk]

3 hours ago, SUP said:

The deterioration of leather and the thread happens over time. I I will apply the oils on the leathers and keep them somewhere safe, and check through the months, with periodic updates if there is damage. @fredk what do you think?

Good plan. I'll sew some of my usual threads into the leather. But most of my thread is bonded nylon which resists most chemicals and lasts a long time. About 10 years ago I cleared out my father's fishing tackle box. One reel was still full of bonded nylon line. It was from about 1956 (supporting evidence) and was soaking in some sort of oily mixture. After cleaning the nylon line was still usable. Test strength was about 50lb. I used it as leader for beach casting for several years

3 hours ago, SUP said:

Incidentally, does anyone have natural fibre threads that have deteriorated without use? I know my regular stitching thread does so, and I have no reason to expect otherwise from thread used for leatherwork. 

yes. recently I found in the back and bottom of my spare threads drawer several, 8 iirc, wenzels of linen thread from when I started leather working 23 years ago. Each card had about 10m of thread, black, brown and white. I'd bought them from Le Prevo. Some of each had deteriorated. As I unwound the thread off the cards the thread came apart in short sections, and the ends of those sections were separating into individual tiny fibres

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati, the article you have given shows the effects of fats soon after tanning, not the effects of long-term use of it by the users of that leather. The article also talks about how synthetic oils have superseded natural ones because of oxidative issues. But it does not say exactly which fats and oils and what the effects are over a long time, Although it does say the actual type oil does not matter. It matters to us though.

All of us here are talking from personal experience or trying to get personal experience  and are curious to  know, once and for all,  about the true ill-effects or advantages, or both, of oils commonly used by ordinary leatherworkers. If you do have actual knowledge it would be nice to hear about it, like so many others have so beautifully and positively contributed to this thread.

Edited September 20, 2023 by SUP
Language corrections.

[SUP]

@fredk I bought most of my thread based on diameter and color and do not know what it is made of - probably synthetic, since that is what is mainly available everywhere these days. I took off all the labels as well unfortunately. So I will need to look for cotton or linen. I don't mind though,. It will be an interesting exercise. 

If your synthetic thread was strong and stable so many years later, that is evidently not the problem. I have not heard about anyone else complaining of synthetic fibres breaking down either.

So that narrows it down to the leather itself and natural fibres.

Your experience with linen thread, so similar to mine, suggests it is the thread itself which deteriorates over time, naturally, rather than because of anything applied to it. I wonder why not all leather goods made with natural fibres  deteriorate though. Well waxed and therefore protected maybe?  Or maybe the stitching itself is the issue too? Too tight, too loose, I'm afraid I cannot help there. Does anyone have any idea about this?

Edited September 20, 2023 by SUP

[TomE]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

To think the effects of various oils on leather has never been considered is silly, its been studied for centuries,  you just have to look for the research its a multi billion dollar industry. Here is one i found in about ten minutes. I will add you will have to find old studies for reliable information, any new info will be tainted by the climate change agenda so I'm sure fossil fuel derived oils will not be on the top ten list in any new publication.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339328369_Leather_and_Textile_Uses_of_Fats_and_Oils

I have more but my links were dropped when i re-set my box. 

Thanks for the article, @chuck123wapati.  Lots of good information about the chemistry of tanning and currying leather.  I understand @SUP's point about the difference between producing leather and maintaining it with a conditioner, but I find it helpful to know what the starting point is at the tannery.

Wish we had a reference section of this forum for depositing and downloading useful articles, book chapters, etc.  I maintain my own collection but it is obviously not all-inclusive and it's fun to see what others turn up.  

 

6 minutes ago, SUP said:

@fredk I bought most of my thread based on diameter and color and do not know what it is made of - probably synthetic, since that is what is mainly available everywhere these days. I took off all the labels as well unfortunately. So I will need to look for cotton or linen. I don't mind though,. It will be an interesting exercise. 

If your synthetic thread was strong and stable so many years later, that is evidently not the problem. I have not heard about anyone else complaining of synthetic fibres breaking down either.

So that narrows it down to the leather itself and natural fibres.

Your experience with linen thread, so similar to mine, suggests it is the thread itself which deteriorates over time, naturally, rather than because of anything applied to it. I wonder why not all leather goods made with natural fibres  deteriorate though. Well waxed and therefore protected maybe?  Or maybe the stitching itself is the issue too? Too tight, too loose, I'm afraid I cannot help there. Does anyone have any idea about this?

 Linen thread most certainly can rot.  When repairing tack, I see linen thread that has deteriorated after decades of use.  I don't know if it's caused by mold, a chemical used to maintain the tack, or something else.  Coating linen thread with beeswax is supposed to help protect it, but for how long?  There was a recent post asking where to find linen thread and the OP noted that Barbour has gone out of business.  Campbell-Randall Corp. has a limited selection of Barbour thread.  For hand sewing tack I mostly use bonded nylon thread from my machine, and for heavier weights I use waxed polyester thread from Maine Thread Co.

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, TomE said:

Thanks for the article, @chuck123wapati.  Lots of good information about the chemistry of tanning and currying leather.  I understand @SUP's point about the difference between producing leather and maintaining it with a conditioner, but I find it helpful to know what the starting point is at the tannery.

Wish we had a reference section of this forum for depositing and downloading useful articles, book chapters, etc.  I maintain my own collection but it is obviously not all-inclusive and it's fun to see what others turn up.  

 

 Linen thread most certainly can rot.  When repairing tack, I see linen thread that has deteriorated after decades of use.  I don't know if it's caused by mold, a chemical used to maintain the tack, or something else.  Coating linen thread with beeswax is supposed to help protect it, but for how long?  There was a recent post asking where to find linen thread and the OP noted that Barbour has gone out of business.  Campbell-Randall Corp. has a limited selection of Barbour thread.  For hand sewing tack I mostly use bonded nylon thread from my machine, and for heavier weights I use waxed polyester thread from Maine Thread Co.

veg tanned leather has no oils applied after tanning that is what we do its called liquoring and it is the starting point of re adding oils to the veg tanned leather.

 

27 minutes ago, SUP said:

@chuck123wapati, the article you have given shows the effects of fats soon after tanning, not the effects of long-term use of it by the users of that leather. The article also talks about how synthetic oils have superseded natural ones because of oxidative issues. But it does not say exactly which fats and oils and what the effects are over a long time, Although it does say the actual type oil does not matter. It matters to us though.

All of us here are talking from personal experience or trying to get personal experience  and are curious to  know, once and for all,  about the true ill-effects or advantages, or both, of oils commonly used by ordinary leatherworkers. If you do have actual knowledge it would be nice to hear about it, like so many others have so beautifully and positively contributed to this thread.

 What you may not realize is that liquoring is what we do when we apply oils on veg tan, until we do that no oils have been applied after tanning that is what we do and it is the long term. 

[SUP]

@TomE It is clear that synthetic fibres survive well over time. Thank you, each person's information adds to confirming this.

And having a reference section is such a good idea!

We have a proverb in Hindi which says, roughly as follows: "What can be done tomorrow can be done today; what can be done today can be done now"

Going by this, maybe those  of us who find good articles can contribute and  request the forum to make it available to everyone. We can start with yours, @chuck123wapati, if you do not mind. 

Now how does one go about requesting the forum to have a section for a repository of such knowledge or is there one already to which a section can be added? 

 

 

[SUP]

 

3 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

 What you may not realize is that liquoring is what we do when we apply oils on veg tan, until we do that no oils have been applied after tanning that is what we do and it is the long term

@chuck123wapati I certainly I did not know that, as many others probably do not either. All the more reason for a repository of knowledge. Besides, I am a little surprised at the general description of the oils. Usually in experiments, it is very specific and even if the results say the same, the actual items used are listed. It probably is, in the full article. 

[chuck123wapati]

24 minutes ago, SUP said:

@fredk I bought most of my thread based on diameter and color and do not know what it is made of - probably synthetic, since that is what is mainly available everywhere these days. I took off all the labels as well unfortunately. So I will need to look for cotton or linen. I don't mind though,. It will be an interesting exercise. 

If your synthetic thread was strong and stable so many years later, that is evidently not the problem. I have not heard about anyone else complaining of synthetic fibres breaking down either.

So that narrows it down to the leather itself and natural fibres.

Your experience with linen thread, so similar to mine, suggests it is the thread itself which deteriorates over time, naturally, rather than because of anything applied to it. I wonder why not all leather goods made with natural fibres  deteriorate though. Well waxed and therefore protected maybe?  Or maybe the stitching itself is the issue too? Too tight, too loose, I'm afraid I cannot help there. Does anyone have any idea about this?

my actual knowledge of oils comes from years of work not only on leather but construction, automotive, and various types of maintenance. I'll give an example i used to work in a prison, Many chemicals were not allowed for obvious reasons. Lubricating oils being one of them. the food service manager could not get oils needed to lubricate his meat slicers so he instructed his inmates to use vegetable oil for lubrication. In less than a month the veg oil had dried into a literal gum that could not be removed by any ordinary means of cleaning, it had to be soaked for hours in our garage in the parts washer. Not only that it was rancid as well soooooo........ its not for leather either it will dry out and stink,its for cooking only and only if you have decent health care coverage.

neets foot oil comes from cows put it back in and you wont have a problem.

[chuck123wapati]

9 minutes ago, SUP said:

@TomE It is clear that synthetic fibres survive well over time. Thank you, each person's information adds to confirming this.

And having a reference section is such a good idea!

We have a proverb in Hindi which says, roughly as follows: "What can be done tomorrow can be done today; what can be done today can be done now"

Going by this, maybe those  of us who find good articles can contribute and  request the forum to make it available to everyone. We can start with yours, @chuck123wapati, if you do not mind. 

Now how does one go about requesting the forum to have a section for a repository of such knowledge or is there one already to which a section can be added? 

 

 

i would love that!!! 

[TomE]

While we're on the subject of fats and oils...

Newbury - 1940 - Oils, fats and waxes in the leather industry.pdf

Blockey - The Application of Oils and Greases to Leather.pdf

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Northmount
Added appication of ... that was on drop box

[chuck123wapati]

My dogs collars are still soft and flexible after three years of being dogs outside playing in the water, rain and dirt the only additional oils they have received since I made them are from the dogs themselves and the threads haven't rotted either. lol  So my deductive reasoning kicks in and says animal oils would probably be best for conditioning animal hides. Any one ever have a dog collar that needed re conditioned?

[SUP]

Great @TomE. Thank you.

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati Haha. Can't comment on that.  My dog chews her collars or tries to get them off to chew them, pulling until she somehow slips them off, then chews them. So no leather collars for her now. For some reason, she does not chew any of my leathers lying around, only her own collars. She knows it is hers, 'to do with as she wishes'. Smart!

[fredk]

40 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

. . . Any one ever have a dog collar that needed re conditioned?

Not dog but a goat collar. Needed NFO'd once a month

[fredk]

16 hours ago, fredk said:

Now, both of us should try our choice of oils on some different pieces of leather.

i.e.  use oils 1, 2, 3 on leather A, and on B, and on C,, that would be 9 test pieces. 

Keep notes

Lets keep to just a few common oils. Keeps it all simpler

@SUP Remember to keep one piece of each leather free of any oils. Its your base reference

I reckon I'll be using; rapeseed oil, vaseline, Johnson's baby oil and 3-in-1 oil

I too buy my threads for their colours and/or thickness. 

I think polyester thread can 'rot'. Long story short; we have about 350 BMW steering wheels. Sewn with polyester thread. About 2/3 or more of them the thread is or has 'rotted' and is breaking down

[SUP]

@fredk Yes that will be a proper way of doing this.

I will be using coconut oil, food grade mineral oil, probably sesame seed oil and  whatever else I have inside. I will need to check.

 

 I  have veg tanned scraps, oil-tanned scraps and other chrome tanned scraps. I am trying to get some information on what oils and waxes are used to finish oil-tanned leather.  The oils and waxes used in finishing oil-tanned leathers, might affect the results of additional oils.

Do you know anything about it?

[Sheilajeanne]

"People just repeating what they've been told"...

As someone who was heavily into riding and working with horses in my younger days, I was told to only use pure neatsfoot oil on leather, as neatsfoot compound contained petroleum products that would rot the stitches.

Good tack is and has always been expensive. You need to take care of it if you want it to last. And horseback riding and driving has a very long history. So, I am quite happy assuming that what's been passed down to me by other knowledgeable equestrians is the truth - the result of several hundred years of caring for tack. 

My riding instructor served in the Hungarian cavalry prior to, and during WWII. He had an old saddle with his name (and rank) on the cantle from his military days. Except for some wear on the saddle flaps from his knees, it was in excellent shape.

I also briefly dated a guy who was with Canada's Governor General's Horse Guards. They used traditional military tack, dating from when Canada still  had a cavalry. He told me his newest piece of equipment was a curb bit with the date 1913 stamped on it!  

In days gone by, the cavalry knew how to look after its equipment, and I saw it with my own eyes. 

Contrast that with what I once read in Mother Earth News, from the hippie generation. People who subscribed to this magazine were all about going back to the land, and living an eco-friendly way of life. For some of them, that meant using horsepower instead of driving a car.

This particular article talked about what was necessary to use horses for transportation. It said that leather will eventually dry out and crack and break. so once a year, you should give the horse's harness a good soaking in a barrel of oil.* Yes, this is really messy, and you will have to hang the harness somewhere where the oil can drip off it afterwards without harming anything, but if you don't do it the leather won't last...

* I don't recall if they specified what kind of oil, but I'm fairly sure it was motor oil. Probably USED motor oil. 

My reaction to reading this:           

F....ing idiots!!

As students of a former cavalry captain, we were taught to clean our tack EVERY time we rode. The main cause of tack breaking at the stable was either years and years of wear and tear, or a horse damaging it after dumping its rider!

Edited September 20, 2023 by Sheilajeanne

[SUP]

@Sheilajeanne   I agree! About the description specially - idiots! 

And I like neatsfoot oil and use it, never mind what a lot of people say, I notice they are either company sites trying to push their own products or the know-it-alls - It takes all kinds. I'm always glad to hear good reports about it. It has been around and found useful for so long, how can it suddenly become 'not good'? Often, tried and tested are the best or at least as good. Wish it was a little less smelly though.

I spoke to @Northmount about creating a repository and he suggests saving the files that people provide as pdf files.  I am not sure how to do that here. Could anyone guide me on that or do it?

 

[Burkhardt]

8 hours ago, SUP said:

 which vegetable oil do you use?

Which ever ones the cheapest or have in the cupboard

[SUP]

@Burkhardt,  practical.

[dikman]

Chicken fat - that is the last thing I would use on leather! It deteriorates quickly and smells revolting!!!