Buying a used first industrial machine

[Zeekar]

Hi all, 

New poster on this forum. Found it referenced a fair bit when researching sewing machines so I decided to ask your collective wisdom for help. Its not exactly leatherworking related but I still hope you will help out.

I'm a hobby sewist. Generally tend to make backpacks, tool holders and other utility trinkets.  Materials generally used are nylon/polyester 400D-1000D weights, webbing and foam for padding. Most of the time my domestic sewing machine is limiting when I try to sew trough the foam since the foot clearance is too low or when I pile up the layers (6 layers of nylon (base material + lining) or 2-3 layers of webbing). Not to mention shifting of layers with a bottom feed machine. The other problem is the thread. Tex 50 is currently the maximum I managed to get working with this machine and getting consistent results. The machine already seemed to be strugling with it.  I would like to upgrade to bonded nylon 69 or 92 thread. Doubt I will have to go any higher for my application. I would like to also keep an option to do any light leatherworking in the future (backpacks from leather just look cool and Im looking in doing some tool belts for friends). 

I'm looking at buying a used machine in the ~ 500€ range. I'm looking at flatbed machines at the moment since cylinder arms are very rare around here and usually way out of my budget. I can handle my way around a machine with a service manual so I'm not too afraid of adjusting a thing or two if needs be. 

I have narrowed down my search to 3 machines:

DURKOPP ADLER 167:

It comes with a table a shorther one which is actually a plus since i dont have that much room in my apartment. Also has a single phase servo motor of unknown power. The machine from the looks of facebook pictures looks in decent condition and has been used to produce leather goods recently. I havent had the chance to contact the seller for any further details.

What worries me is the cost of extras example feet and spare parts. Quick googling has shown the parts being quite expensive so any possible repairs would be very expensive even in a diy setting. I've also found that the timing belt change can be a big problem. Its also almost a 2h drive away from where I live otherwise I would have probably already go and check it out.

 

Second machine is a Singer 211G666:

Currently asking price is 300€. Comes with a 3 phase clutch motor so that would need changing to a servo. Current owner doesnt know any recent history of the machine since he took it as part of compensation. From what I've read its a reliable machine that is relatively ok to mantain and the parts are plentiful. It seems like it would be a good deal if I can haggle down the price a bit. A 500W servo runs for about 180-200€ round here. The location is also on the way to work so its easy for me to go and check it out.

 

Third option is a Pfaff of unknown type.

The seller will let me know on Monday what is the exact type (it seems like a 1245 but i'm really not sure since I've only saw them trough pictures):

Asking price 250€ and as the singer it also comes with a 3 phase clutch motor. Same caveats apply as with the singer and the additional problem of having expensive parts which arent readily available. But its a Pfaff which is synonim with quality around here.

 

All three machines seem to be more than up to the task of what I will require of them or did I miss anything obvious? Like any of the machines being too heavy duty to actually be adjust to such low weight thread that I plan on using?

When I go to check them out what should I check on them? This would be my first industrial so I'm kinda lost here. I'm planning on taking some thread and material to try them out but what are the parts that are prone to wearing out on such machines? 

I'm personally leaning towards either the Singer or the Adler. Adler because its pretty much a full package and Singer because its cheaper to maintain and get accessories.  

 

Thank you in advance for all your help. 

 

[GerryR]

I can't comment on the individual machines, but can make a suggestion concerning the 3-phase clutch motors.  There are a multitude of variable frequency drives (VFD) that run from single phase input power to produce 3-phase motor output power and are relatively inexpensive (<$100.00USD).  You can use one of these to get variable speed from the existing clutch motor by simply engaging the clutch permanently and use the VFD to vary the speed.  I just built a system and purchased a TIG welder foot pedal, which has a potentiometer inside (for $20.00 USD), to vary the VFD output to the motor.  The VFD I bought on Ebay for $30.00 and is good for up to a 1hp motor.  So for $50.00 or so, you could drive the existing 3-phase clutch motors and not have to spend money for a servo drive and whatever changes would be required to mount the new servo system.  Just an option that could possibly save time and money.

[Zeekar]

Thats definitly an option but the main issue I have with clutch motors is the permanent on status and the noise that comes with that. 

 

But thank you for the tig welder foot pedal tip. Was just searching for something similar for a different project and this seems like it will fit the bill.

[dikman]

As long as it sews/runs ok the Singer would probably be your best bet, in my opinion. They are well built and parts (feet etc) should be cheap. The motor setup on it looks like it may be variable speed rather than a clutch motor, if so you could use a VFD, as Gerry suggests, to run on single phase. Just set the VFD to a fixed speed and use the variable speed in the motor control unit - I think it should work.

Otherwise just buy a servo.

Edited November 10, 2023 by dikman

[GerryR]

11 minutes ago, Zeekar said:

Thats definitly an option but the main issue I have with clutch motors is the permanent on status and the noise that comes with that. 

 

But thank you for the tig welder foot pedal tip. Was just searching for something similar for a different project and this seems like it will fit the bill.

The idea of using the VFD is the clutch motor will no longer be on all the time but will be under control of the VFD via the foot pedal.  You just lock the clutch on and when you use the foot pedal the motor will run  at the speed based upon the position of the foot pedal.

[Zeekar]

17 hours ago, dikman said:

As long as it sews/runs ok the Singer would probably be your best bet, in my opinion. They are well built and parts (feet etc) should be cheap. The motor setup on it looks like it may be variable speed rather than a clutch motor, if so you could use a VFD, as Gerry suggests, to run on single phase. Just set the VFD to a fixed speed and use the variable speed in the motor control unit - I think it should work.

Otherwise just buy a servo.

Tnx!

Yes from the additional pics Ive gotten it seems its equiped with an efka variostop. Ive attached the pictures i got. 

 

Could you (or anyone) also give me some advice what should I check on the machine before I purchase it.

 

17 hours ago, GerryR said:

The idea of using the VFD is the clutch motor will no longer be on all the time but will be under control of the VFD via the foot pedal.  You just lock the clutch on and when you use the foot pedal the motor will run  at the speed based upon the position of the foot pedal.

That makes a lot more sense

 

[CowboyBob]

The Singer 211 has a smaller handwheel making it harder to slow down than the other 2 & do to the design of it you can't install a larger pulley on it,for this reason & the fact that a few of the screws for it aren't available anymore would steer me towards one of the others.They both have larger bobbins too.The 167 should have a rubber belt in it,if it's cloth don't buy it.

[Zeekar]

6 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

The Singer 211 has a smaller handwheel making it harder to slow down than the other 2 & do to the design of it you can't install a larger pulley on it,for this reason & the fact that a few of the screws for it aren't available anymore would steer me towards one of the others.They both have larger bobbins too.The 167 should have a rubber belt in it,if it's cloth don't buy it.

The seller sent me a picture of the inside. The belt looks like it's rubber, but it also looks quite worn. Would this need replacing?

[Constabulary]

yeah, looks, cracked and IMO it needs to be replaced. Its doable but not easy. You find some hints here:

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

I would still go with the Singer. I agree with cowboyBob regarding the hand wheel on the 211 (I tried this on my 212 and I had no success) but if you want to change the motor and install a new servo motor you could add a speed reducer to slow down the sewing speed and add more torque.

I would check the machines if they have matching forward and reverse stitch length. I know there is a procedure how to adjust F+R stitch length for the Singer 211 and the Adler 167 but I think I have not read anywhere how to do this on a Pfaff 1245 (not saying it is not possible).

If the stitch length matters for your projects I think the Adler and the Pfaff have max 6mm and the Singer 5mm.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Constabulary