First pair of sandals underway

[Mablung]

https://leatherworker.net/forum/forum/221-sharpen-it/
 

Link above. 
 

Obviously you’re not totally new to sharpening, if you know to feel for the burr. I will say, though, you’re wasting effort and possibly causing angle changes just through natural human inconsistency by raising a burr a second time.

The general wisdom is that once you’ve raised the burr on one side and then cleaned it off so that both sides of the bevel are even, you’ve maxed out how sharp you’ll make the knife at that grit level. Then it’s time to move up to the next stone up, in whatever set you’re using. (Since you said you’re using a “coarse” stone, I’ll assume you’re using an oil stone of some species or a waterstone around the 800–1000 grit mark.) Each successive burr-remove-burr again cycle just removes more metal but does not refine the edge further. The next stone up will refine the edge by taking off finer bits of metal, on up to polishing stones and stropping doing exactly that, polishing and smoothing the edge. 
 

While still honing the blade, keep doing the burr-remove cycle, but pay attention to the consistency of each bevel. Keep the angle right and keep the pressure consistent. Raise the burr on one side, uniformly across the edge, then remove it uniformly. Then check the edge again to make sure all is consistent, then move on to the next stone. 
 

After working through your stones, polish on the strop. Use jeweler’s rouge, then green buffing compound, then leather without any compound (if you want—lots of people stop with green and get a wonderful finish on the edge that way). If you have done your job patiently, you should have a mirror-polished edge. 
 

That takes time, patience, attention, patience, elbow grease, patience, practice, and patience. It can be especially challenging with a round knife, because the geometry requires the blade be sharpened in portions, rather than the whole edge at once. (Or at least, you will likely find it much easier starting out by doing portions—trying to sweep the whole edge across the stone consistently in every respect with every stroke is extremely difficult to get right.)

[Mablung]

5 hours ago, deboardp said:

The edge of that trim knife looks like it has a consistent bevel, as best as I can tell. But it’s not nearly as sharp as it could be, which I can tell from how dully the bevel reflects light. Even the body of the blade behind the bevel reflects more. You need to work that blade up through some finer stones and strop it well. A knife truly sharp enough for leather work will glide through the leather—that is, the blade is FRIGHTENINGLY sharp.

Watch the video in one thread in the sharpening forum about sharpening the round knife. Great explanation of the technique. At the end, the guy demonstrates the edge of his knife on some 10 oz. veg tan saddle skirting—the knife slides through like the leather is butter. 

[deboardp]

2 minutes ago, Mablung said:

https://leatherworker.net/forum/forum/221-sharpen-it/
 

Link above. 
 

Obviously you’re not totally new to sharpening, if you know to feel for the burr. I will say, though, you’re wasting effort and possibly causing angle changes just through natural human inconsistency by raising a burr a second time.

The general wisdom is that once you’ve raised the burr on one side and then cleaned it off so that both sides of the bevel are even, you’ve maxed out how sharp you’ll make the knife at that grit level. Then it’s time to move up to the next stone up, in whatever set you’re using. (Since you said you’re using a “coarse” stone, I’ll assume you’re using an oil stone of some species or a waterstone around the 800–1000 grit mark.) Each successive burr-remove-burr again cycle just removes more metal but does not refine the edge further. The next stone up will refine the edge by taking off finer bits of metal, on up to polishing stones and stropping doing exactly that, polishing and smoothing the edge. 
 

While still honing the blade, keep doing the burr-remove cycle, but pay attention to the consistency of each bevel. Keep the angle right and keep the pressure consistent. Raise the burr on one side, uniformly across the edge, then remove it uniformly. Then check the edge again to make sure all is consistent, then move on to the next stone. 
 

After working through your stones, polish on the strop. Use jeweler’s rouge, then green buffing compound, then leather without any compound (if you want—lots of people stop with green and get a wonderful finish on the edge that way). If you have done your job patiently, you should have a mirror-polished edge. 
 

That takes time, patience, attention, patience, elbow grease, patience, practice, and patience. It can be especially challenging with a round knife, because the geometry requires the blade be sharpened in portions, rather than the whole edge at once. (Or at least, you will likely find it much easier starting out by doing portions—trying to sweep the whole edge across the stone consistently in every respect with every stroke is extremely difficult to get right.)

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. That's the exact procedure I used to sharpen my custom round knife, made of a special hard steel. I have three stones in a triangle holder and four leather strops, black and green Rouge. My round knife has the mirror finishes. I forgot the procedure for this new knife. My memory doesn't work well.  I'll go back to it. I'll also return to the original angle of the knife edge and just follow the procedure, although I'm afraid I scuffed up that bright finish on the unshakable part. Woops. 

[Mablung]

1 minute ago, deboardp said:

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. That's the exact procedure I used to sharpen my custom round knife, made of a special hard steel. I have three stones in a triangle holder and four leather strops, black and green Rouge. My round knife has the mirror finishes. I forgot the procedure for this new knife. My memory doesn't work well.  I'll go back to it. I'll also return to the original angle of the knife edge and just follow the procedure, although I'm afraid I scuffed up that bright finish on the unshakable part. Woops. 

Then you've got what you need already, including the procedure (just gotta call it to mind!).  If you're used to sharpening your round knife, you'll just have to make a few adjustments to your grip and angle when sharpening the trim knife.  I have to work myself back through the angle and approach whenever I change the style of knife I'm sharpening.

[deboardp]

1 minute ago, deboardp said:

The general wisdom is that once you’ve raised the burr on one side and then cleaned it of

Intuitively I want to clean the burr off by sliding the knife across the stone edge first, to pull the burr off. Is that how it's cleaned off?

[Mablung]

1 minute ago, deboardp said:

Intuitively I want to clean the burr off by sliding the knife across the stone edge first, to pull the burr off. Is that how it's cleaned off?

Yep.  If you're sharpening Side A and thus raising a burr on Side B, you then just do the same thing to Side B that you did to Side A—except this time, you're reducing the burr back down to the bevel so that the bevel is even again on both sides.  In the process you have evened out the edge, making the steel uniform.  That's essentially all sharpening is.

That said, there is always a little bit of burr left on the very end of the edge, if you're doing your job properly.   You polish that down with the later stones (and there are some more advanced techniques meant specifically to get rid of as much burr as possible to produce the smoothest cutting edge—I haven't tried them because I just learned about them).

So if you sharpen Side A by sliding it along the stone as though you're trying to cut off a sliver of the stone, then you do the same thing to Side B until the burr has been removed.  Then do the same on the next stone up.

[deboardp]

3 minutes ago, Mablung said:

Yep.  If you're sharpening Side A and thus raising a burr on Side B, you then just do the same thing to Side B that you did to Side A—except this time, you're reducing the burr back down to the bevel so that the bevel is even again on both sides.  In the process you have evened out the edge, making the steel uniform.  That's essentially all sharpening is.

That said, there is always a little bit of burr left on the very end of the edge, if you're doing your job properly.   You polish that down with the later stones (and there are some more advanced techniques meant specifically to get rid of as much burr as possible to produce the smoothest cutting edge—I haven't tried them because I just learned about them).

So if you sharpen Side A by sliding it along the stone as though you're trying to cut off a sliver of the stone, then you do the same thing to Side B until the burr has been removed.  Then do the same on the next stone up.

I've been doing circles, not cutting into the stone. I did it with the round knife, removing the burr on both sides with circles, then moving to finer stone. I have no idea how I can do a round knife like that. It has infinite points to cut into the stone!

I have to retire. Tomorrow!

Edited January 20 by deboardp

[Mablung]

6 hours ago, deboardp said:

I've been doing circles, not cutting into the stone. I did it with the round knife, removing the burr on both sides with circles, then moving to finer stone. I have no idea how I can do a round knife like that. It has infinite points to cut into the stone!

I have to retire. Tomorrow!

I forgot, in writing my comments, that you mentioned you had been going in circles. That is a legitimate technique to use, although personally, I find it extremely difficult to keep the proper angle if I do that. So I don’t use the circular technique, but you can. I will say that I think Techniques big tip, especially difficult to keep the proper angle with round knives in particular. I have used it in working on setting the bevel on my round knife because I wanted to send it out from the factory, secondary bevel, but it is harder to get the edge right if one does that throughout.

[deboardp]

2 hours ago, Mablung said:

I forgot, in writing my comments, that you mentioned you had been going in circles. That is a legitimate technique to use, although personally, I find it extremely difficult to keep the proper angle if I do that. So I don’t use the circular technique, but you can. I will say that I think Techniques big tip, especially difficult to keep the proper angle with round knives in particular. I have used it in working on setting the bevel on my round knife because I wanted to send it out from the factory, secondary bevel, but it is harder to get the edge right if one does that throughout.

It wasn't difficult for me. I worked with hand tools as a high-end remodel/repair contractor for 30 years before the diseases associated with herbicide exposure disabled me 20 years ago. I have a sensitive touch with tools. I can push my round knife through 7/8 ounce leather easily. I'd like to get that trim knife to do the same.

Talk about frighteningly sharp. I learned how to sharpen a scythe back in 2014 when I rented a room on a farm. I was allowed a section of it to make a garden, but it had 3' of grass on it. There was an old scythe laying around. I got permission to sharpen it, and I watched some YouTube videos on the subject, bought the rounded scythe anvil to stretch the blade out. Simply making contact with the blade could cut through skin. After it was sharp, I cleared the grass, cutting it at ground level with the strokes I learned from the videos. It was quite satisfying!

Since I've had my shop, my pocket knives are razor sharp. My round knife is sharper than a razor (I think), definitely sharper than my pocket knives. I give it way more attention. It could be sharper, though, because I haven't used anything but the coarse stone and black rouge strop for a couple months. Time to get back to basics... use the other stones and strops... I do like a wicked sharp knife...

[Sheilajeanne]

For future reference: stay the heck away from Al Stohlman knives, unless they are really really old. The modern ones are made from poor low carbon steel! 

Quote

And the newer Osborne's and Tandy knives just don't hold an edge. And, are usually more than 40 dollars. I have owned 2 Stohlman knives and have given both of them away. You might as well keep using a box cutter than to spend money on a blade with Tandy.  

 

 

[Mablung]

2 hours ago, deboardp said:

It wasn't difficult for me. I worked with hand tools as a high-end remodel/repair contractor for 30 years before the diseases associated with herbicide exposure disabled me 20 years ago. I have a sensitive touch with tools. I can push my round knife through 7/8 ounce leather easily. I'd like to get that trim knife to do the same.

Talk about frighteningly sharp. I learned how to sharpen a scythe back in 2014 when I rented a room on a farm. I was allowed a section of it to make a garden, but it had 3' of grass on it. There was an old scythe laying around. I got permission to sharpen it, and I watched some YouTube videos on the subject, bought the rounded scythe anvil to stretch the blade out. Simply making contact with the blade could cut through skin. After it was sharp, I cleared the grass, cutting it at ground level with the strokes I learned from the videos. It was quite satisfying!

Since I've had my shop, my pocket knives are razor sharp. My round knife is sharper than a razor (I think), definitely sharper than my pocket knives. I give it way more attention. It could be sharper, though, because I haven't used anything but the coarse stone and black rouge strop for a couple months. Time to get back to basics... use the other stones and strops... I do like a wicked sharp knife...

Sounds like my tutorial on sharpening is entirely superfluous for you, then, lol. You’ve definitely got sharpening straight and have been doing it much, much longer than I have. And you have the right touch to sharpen it like that. If you can sharpen your round knife that well, then you’ll have no trouble With getting your trim knife that sharp, with a little bit of adjustment technique. My birthday is coming up, so I think I will get my wife to get me a better round knife. Was thinking of one of the CS Osborne ones that still seems decent. 

[Bawarrior]

Can't wait to see them finished

[Wepster]

@deboardp carving tools, there are a lot of companies, here is a start   https://www.flexcut.com/

they have profile charts   https://www.flexcut.com/tool-tips/tool-profile-charts/

those blades look like Warren cutlery. I get them from https://gregdorrance.com/product-category/carving-tools-supplies/wood-carving-hand-tools/knives-for-carving/

https://gregdorrance.com/?s=warren&post_type=product

Warren cutlery is not far from you (well, 1.5 hrs or so), Rhinebeck,   https://warrencutlery.com/

 

[WalterF]

Looks interesting, how you are assembling. A scalpel is useful for me in tight situations and the blades are cheap and can be changed when they loose an edge. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

[deboardp]

6 hours ago, Mablung said:

Sounds like my tutorial on sharpening is entirely superfluous for you, then, lol. You’ve definitely got sharpening straight and have been doing it much, much longer than I have.

Uh, sheesh, it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. I just watched a video by Kevin and Denny of Springfield Leather Company. Denny is an old saddle maker. The video is about how to sharpen a head knife, aka round knife. He says that a circular motion is alternating between making sharp and making dull, that the motion cannot be pushing the knife edge into the stone, because that dulls the knife. It has to be all pulling the edge away from the stone. He shows how. click here to see Kevin owns SLC, Denny works there.

My poor head knife! I'm headed to the stones and strops and see what I can do with these two knives of mine. (I have another round knife, from TAndy, soft steel,  I prefer the custom one, of better steel, and harder to sharpen. But then, I've been doing it wrong the whole time... Sheesh!

[Mablung]

4 hours ago, deboardp said:

Uh, sheesh, it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. I just watched a video by Kevin and Denny of Springfield Leather Company. Denny is an old saddle maker. The video is about how to sharpen a head knife, aka round knife. He says that a circular motion is alternating between making sharp and making dull, that the motion cannot be pushing the knife edge into the stone, because that dulls the knife. It has to be all pulling the edge away from the stone. He shows how. click here to see Kevin owns SLC, Denny works there.

My poor head knife! I'm headed to the stones and strops and see what I can do with these two knives of mine. (I have another round knife, from TAndy, soft steel,  I prefer the custom one, of better steel, and harder to sharpen. But then, I've been doing it wrong the whole time... Sheesh!

He says that, but I don’t think that’s true of necessity. I’ve gotten some frighteningly sharp edges by pushing the edge forward. He also does by pulling it backward. Just be consistent and you’ll be fine. German bladesmiths used to sharpen straight razors with a circular motion; done properly, it works. Denny’s argument has some truth to it, but it’s not the definitive guide to sharpening. 

Edited January 21 by Mablung

[deboardp]

16 hours ago, Mablung said:

Denny’s argument has some truth to it, but it’s not the definitive guide to sharpening. 

Others say the same as you, including my friend @chuck123wapati, who is never wrong, haha. However, I worked on my head and trim knives just a little, using the drag away from the stone method, and I noticed that it's quicker and it made both knives noticeably sharper. I never got to the second stone or the second strop. 

I finished my slots and am gluing the strap dead ends. The little trim knife cuts more precisely with tiny back and forth motions, otherwise if I just exert pressure, it can cut beyond the slot. Woops. 

Edited January 21 by deboardp

[Mablung]

40 minutes ago, deboardp said:

Others say the same as you, including my friend @chuck123wapati, who is never wrong, haha. However, I worked on my head and trim knives just a little, using the drag away from the stone method, and I noticed that it's quicker and it made both knives noticeably sharper. I never got to the second stone or the second strop. 

I finished my slots and am gluing the strap dead ends. The little trim knife cuts more precisely with tiny back and forth motions, otherwise if I just exert pressure, it can cut beyond the slot. Woops. 

As I like to say, "Whatever floats your goat"—and if that's using the pull method, go for it.  I've tried it a bit and found it interesting.  It does upend a bit of the other prevalent advice about checking for the burr, etc., or at least it seems to me that it does, so that will take some readjusting.  I could be wrong about that, though, so test it out and see what works for you.

[deboardp]

2 minutes ago, Mablung said:

It does upend a bit of the other prevalent advice about checking for the burr, etc., or at least it seems to me that it does, so that will take some readjusting. 

I noticed that there was no burr when I checked. To me that means I'm not losing that bit of metal. That's okay with me. These knives are not cheap. Plus that trim knife is now sharp enough to cut leather in tight places, so I'm happy with this method and will advance to the finer stones now. 

 

[Mablung]

30 minutes ago, deboardp said:

I noticed that there was no burr when I checked. To me that means I'm not losing that bit of metal. That's okay with me. These knives are not cheap. Plus that trim knife is now sharp enough to cut leather in tight places, so I'm happy with this method and will advance to the finer stones now. 

 

Hm, sounds promising. That technique might have more currency than I thought. 

[deboardp]

On 1/21/2024 at 3:50 PM, Mablung said:

Hm, sounds promising. That technique might have more currency than I thought

I used it on my kitchen knife and the results were that the process was quick, simple, and extraordinary. Never had that knife that sharp, and the effort was minimal, as well as the time. 

In other news, now that I have and can make them sharp, I can work on building footwear. Yesterday I worked 5 hours in the shop. I cut, made channels, waxed, glued, pressed. Today I plan to sand, burnish, and sew. 

 

[deboardp]

The dark brown is melted wax on the flesh side of the topsole, after I glued the middle onto it. I'm not sure it's a good idea to do that. I rubbed a candle end on the other contact surface. It takes up too much space in the channel. I'll see how it behaves after I grease it up. 

[deboardp]

One shoe, three soles, all 7/8 oz veg tan. To and bottom are firm Hermann Oak, the center is more supple veg tan for straps cuts from belt of the side for the midsole (channel sole).

This is the glued soles ready for positioning against the alignment brads. I messed up the channel sole. I roughed up the grain side after I had cut the channels out, and the length of the sole stretched, the straps and channels were slightly misaligned and it took delicate knife work to remove more leather from the channel so the straps would fit. 

 

[deboardp]

Today I'll sand the three layer edge, burnish it, mark a stitch line, and see if I can follow it. I wonder if I should wet the leather before stitching so the thread sinks in a little below the surface of the grain. Or maybe do the greasing of the leather. 

 

[deboardp]

On 1/19/2024 at 5:15 PM, deboardp said:

The Tandy Pro Knife came this week and I was able to finish the corners of the slots on one top sole today. The blades that come with the knife are not very sharp and the steel is very hard, so I spent about a half hour with the coarse stone trying to make it sharp enough to cut leather with little back and forth motions. I managed with some difficulty to finish the task, but will definitely want that knife sharper for the second topsole. 

Notice the angles of the dead ends. They have to equal the angles on the other side of the leather sole. 

I found out this is wrong, at least the wide side of the front strap. It doesn't grab the knuckle with that angle. It flares away from the foot, creating a gap. I cut the glued and pressed joint with my round knife and reset it at a simple 90 degrees. The Barge tore the leather apart when I tried to separate that glue joint so I basically skived the glue off the leather strap. 

The pic shows my ink line of the original position. 

I'm still figuring out my procedure to make sandals in 2024, with operations I didn't use in 1970-1978. The work is therefore a bit sloppy. It's visible in this Pic how I had to remove leather from the slots because the midsole stretched during rough up. Sloppy!! Actually, what's visible is how the channels have a bit of a gap on the heel side of the channels, from the midsole being stretched lengthwise. 

Edited January 23 by deboardp