Covering swells

[bruce johnson]

Changing gears from trees here. Randy's post on the Hamley saddle and his comment about "Someone took a lot of time to form those swells" got me thinking. I had an old guy talk me through it several years ago about covering some swell forks without welts. I took a class from Jesse Smith last year at Wickenburg, and he had some more tricks that have helped. I have still been beaten by some, and then gone ahead and welted them. I really don't have anything against welts. I think mine turn out well enough, but just don't like to do them if I don't have to.

I would like this to kind of go in a few directions. What kind of swells can you more consistanly not welt? Particular selection of leather? Skiving or casing tips? Forming and compressing tips? If you do welt, do you use a single welt, folded welt, or blind stitch? Laces instead of a welt? Welts to the front, down the sides, or pulled to the rear? Tips and tricks are always appreciated.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Bruce,

I don't have all the answers to your questions but a few things I've noticed about covering swell forks... Forks that have more undercut to them tend to be more difficult or impossible to cover without a welt. Sometimes you can cover a difficult swell fork without a welt by really working the leather and stretching it every which way only to have the cover split when you stamp it because the leather is under some tension. Obviously belly leather is going to stretch more and be easier to mold over the swells, but it'll wear quicker is someone or something is rubbing on it. It also won't carve as nicely if this is a consideration. Trying to find a piece of leather that has some life to it, can still be molded, will wear relatively slowly, and can be carved, is an art.

Darc

[jwwright]

I am anxiously awaiting everyone's words of wisdom on this topic. I have recovered a bowman and wade forks in the past without welts. Currently, I am working on my 3rd complete saddle, start to finish. All have been swell forks thus far. I have done laced up swells on these, mainly because I like it........it's a southwest cowpuncher thing, I guess. I have done some hidden stitch type in the past, which I think works well if a fella is going to carve the swells. I would sure like to do some larger swell forks in the future without welts or laces. Thanks.

[TracyMoss]

If you are open ( minded ) to lacing the back of the swell you can cover alot larger swell fork without welts. I have found that roughout swells are easier to cover in one piece without having to split the back and lace it. Just my two cents.

[AndyKnight]

I can usually cover bowman with no issues welt free. Modified association can be tough But I have done tons of them over the years. Now I just love wades!!! I figure that sadlemakers and treemakers should be able to charge more for swell forks.

I just covered one that had higher shoulders than a bowman. similar to a mod association. It was about the limit. for me as it was folded under itself around the rim of the fork. If you pink the front and run it under the front of the fork you can get quite a bit of leather pushed in there. Also cut your seat generously and you can cover quite a bit.

Years ago I used to cover some by cover ing the gullet and the fork with one piece. I cut them with gullet going in to the flank.

The old Muir Macdonald leather was great for covering forks!

Now I usually cut my fork covers out of the shoulder . a good balance between mold-ability and durability.

Any time you have to really work at it you will have an issue with stamping or carving as you have stretch, hammer , and rub the leather so much to smooth it out.

Bottom line I hand stitch folded welts in most of my forks with higher shoulders usually straight down the side. Sometimes I will use a blind stitch.

I am a contact cement guy and that is what I use now on my swell forks aswell. I case the leather really well and allow it to dry enough to where it will stick with contact. I fit the cover, horn hole , hand hole and the fork rim. I then take it off , roll my fork rim, and glue, rough it up and glue around the fork rim , horn and hand hole. both on the cover and on the tree.

Now before placing it on I wet the rest of the fork cover,with water and then apply copious amount of glue so that it won't dry right away.

Now place it on the fork . The areas that are glued and dry you can stick in the place you want them and they will stay. eg: get your horn hole and fork rim lined up perfectly. placed. nail, Now you can spike down the rest. When it is dry it is tight and glued down forever.

Not very traditional but it works for me.

I hate lacing up behind the horn unless I absolutely have to. !!. It is a lazy thing.!

Edited February 16, 2008 by AndyKnight

[kseidel]

I agree with Andy, roper and wade swells are easy without welts. Higher shoulders and more undercut or leg cut increases the degree of dificulty exponentially! I once covered a 15 inch low moose without welts..... It can be done, but I won't do it again. Modified Assocations up to 13 inches wide, Roper or rounded swells also to 13 inches. Will James and Liewellan fronts up to 12 inches are possible, but much more difficult. The undercut presents the biggest problem, and rigging filling the space will change the dynamics a bit.

I find that thicker leather is easier than thin. It absorbs the wrinkles better. I prefer the shoulder or central belly area for swell covers. I want the more open fibers for flexibility, but many times the shoulder area will be thick on one side and too thin on the other. Thinner, softer leather would seem to be easier to mold, but I find the opposite to be true.

Folded welts are much stronger than single ply, and wear much better. Where you place the welt not only affects wear, but affects cosmetics. You can drastically change the look of your saddle by where you place the welt. If placed contrary to the natural curves of the swell, it can look out of place. ie: butting a straught vertical side welt on a bull moose with well defined leg cut. Following the curve along or parallel to the leg cut would look much better. Putting the welt in the front in, in this case would also be good.

A blind stitch welt tends to shrink and develop a gap showing the stitching over time. Placement of a blind stitch is critical... you would not want to put the welt over a sharp edge of the swell.

Most beginners welt their swells too tight. This creates problems getting over the shoulders, as well as forming gaps in the welt when dry. Remember, even on a welted swell, you can shrink and mold a great deal of leather around the bottom of the swell and into the hand hole.

You ask a lot of questions in your post Bruce. Hard to give a short simple reply! HaHa

Keith

[bruce johnson]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Keith, by the way, I do ask a lot of questions sometimes, but I figure lay them all out and let it roll.

Just a few disjointed ramblings and observations.

I am with Keith on thicker leather absorbing wrinkles better. That is how I was originally taught - skive the area where the swell base meets the bars to maybe 9-10 oz and not any thinner. Too thin and the wrinkles don't absorb, they fold over. Still flat, but a rough look. I like low center of the belly right in the middle. Usually the thickness is consistant side to side. I found when I used low neck, one side was thicker. One side always laid right in and the other side wanted to fight. If I am going to fight one, I want to do it on both sides - then just go ahead and welt it. One thing with doing a lot of repairs is that I have cut covers from about everywhere but the butt. I have had some shoulders lay in nicely cut vertically, not every one though. Not enough to make me want to cut them all there either.

I also was taught to visualize the excess in thirds. Pull it down and tack so that about one third of the excess is towards the front of the swell and 2/3 to the rear. I have talked to guys who go half and half and welt more than I do. From where I cut the ones that work - that front third is denser so will take up less slack and there is more fudge room over the groundwork to work wrinkles into.

Case with warmish water. Seems to work a little better.

Working out wrinkles - can o' worms. In the Bruce Cheaney videos he tacks a strip on the side down low where it be covered, and then pivots it around and uses it to beat against working from top to bottom. ("wiping strip"?) I was taught to nail at both ends. Divide the excess in half and put a small nail in the middle. Work that excess in each "bubble" as much as it would compress, then divide that excess in half, tack again in the middle and so on. All the time dividing the bubble rather than chasing it side to side. Jesse Smith taught last year to tie surgical tubing (heavy elastic) in a double wrap around each side of the swell like a big rubber band on each side. Work the slack down under that elastic and it pretty well held it. That has helped some of mine, in conjuction with a few nails. It will sure suck one in tight on the bottom sometimes. I have had some I was about to give up on, came back a couple hours later or next morning, and the temper was just right - one pass of the slicker or tap and that bubble is gone.

Some swells just don't lend themselves to unsplit covers. I have found that the thinner forks like the BW and the barrel racers are bears, undercuts and severe leg cuts ditto. JUst plan on welts from the start. The low TM roper swells are cake - no welts. I can usually do the Dee Picketts, Bowmans, Olin Youngs alright. I am with Andy, slick forks are the way to fly. Anybody charge extra to cover or recover swell forks vs. slick forks? Upcharge for welts vs. no welts?

[kseidel]

Slick forks are great until you want to cover the swell and gullet all with one piece. Then there is too much material to stuff into the gullet.

Keith

[TroyWest]

All these answers are on the money. I just covered a mod. assoc. yesterday, no welt. My next saddle is a mod. assoc. and the customer requested no welt, but it's about his 5th saddle. I don't charge extra on new saddles but I once had an order for a guy who sent me 11 pages of what he wanted. One request was a 16" swell with no welt. I charged him $100.00 extra and did it on the 1st try. I'm sorry I didn't take a picture. I built a couple of ranch cutters last year. These are the only ones I put a hidden welt on. It's totally accepted in cutter world but I don't like it on cowboy saddles at all. It's easy to do but it just aint punchy enough, and it does tend to gap over time. I really prefer no welt but when I do I'll put the welt to the front like a bronc saddle, for the same reasons. If you lock up on the swell your not against the welt. Another thing I do is after putting a nail at the base of the swell in front, at the gullet, I'll take my dog pliars and pull at the front stirrup leather groove to put a nail up by the handhold. Then I'll take my rubbing stick and push that leather down from horn to middle of swell base and then to front side and then to the back. Then I'll take my french hammer and using a thick piece of scap leather against the swell sort of beat that leather down the middle in the same process, then to the front, to the rear, just splitting the differences. If the leather is to stiff to the front, direct more to the rear, If not just split the differences. I do have contact cement under there and this method works for me. Hope I explained it adequately. Here are a couple of pictures of mod. assoc., One with a welt and one without.

[jwwright]

Thanks for all the thoughts and tips fellers. Keep it coming. I am starting another ranch cutter this week, with thicker and lower swells than a typical Buster Welch front. Gonna see if I can't get it covered without a welt. Thanks again.

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

Keith,

Can you explain why a folded welt is stronger than a single ply? I have always liked the look of the single ply better. However I want to build a saddle that will last longer.

What are peoples thoughts on braiding the welt.

Ashley

[Sandy Robbins]

I have a friend that gave me an old saddle that the leather was pretty well dry rotted. So i stripped it down to the tree and patched the holes and put a few coats of a waterproof sealer on it and it seams pretty sound now. I dont know what kind of tree it is. But it has huge swells on it and it is a little intimidating to me since this is only my second saddle. What possessed me to try this i dont know but i will give it my best! My 1st was a SF Bowman. I am definitely saving the earlier posts for references. Any other suggestions or advise are more than welcomed!!

Thanks in advance!

[kseidel]

Ashley,

On a folded welt the leather at the top is run under the swell cover and flared out. The top of the rolled welt is well supported from underneath. On a single ply welt, the top edge is butted into the cut in the swell cover, but doesn't extend very far underneath. The piece of leather protruding to the outside can tear away fairly easily and leave the stitching exposed. If you do a single ply welt, use a softer more flexible piece of leather for your welt, and don't stitch your stitches too close together. 5 or 6 to the inch is tight enough.

Hope this helps,

Keith

[YRsaddles]

Keith,

Can you explain why a folded welt is stronger than a single ply? I have always liked the look of the single ply better. However I want to build a saddle that will last longer.

What are peoples thoughts on braiding the welt.

Ashley

here's my 2 cents on braided welts, personally I like the overall look of the braided welt vs single or folded welt. but one thing to keep in mind that unless steps are taken to slow down wear, the lace can be torn to pieces in a relatively short time. I've heard or saddle makers putting a type of varnish on the lace so it doesn't wear as quick...but I think wears issues can also be slowed with HOW you position the welt..refer to Troy's pics..the riders thigh won't rub the welt when it is positoned like that.

Dave

[rktaylor]

I am going to be faced with this issue in the near future. I will be building on a Will James tree with 13.5 inch swells. Maybe I could cover them without welts, but I figured it was something I should learn anyway. I am planning to lace them, but this last post has me somewhat concerned. I sure see a lot of saddles with laces down the side of the swells, but I know that doesn't mean its a good idea.

I figure after six years some of the opinions may have changed or maybe someone new wants to chime in.

Thanks,

Randy

[kseidel]

rkktaylor, Will James swells over 12" can be difficult of not impossible to cover without welts, depending on treemaker and rigging. It is difficult to do a smooth laced welt. They tend to be bulky. Best advise would be to use kangaroo lace and use care not to get too high up on your swell. You don't want the lace to stick up and be the highest part on the swell. Stretch and mould the leather down over the swell so that the welt does not need to be cut up too high. Good luck.

Keith

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I'm curious what everyone else thinks of this one. It is an old Fred Mueller saddle with 17" swells, 2-1/4" undercut, and an inch backswell with just a slight leg cut. There are NO welts! Most of the slack was worked around to the back. There was very little slack worked down ahead of center. Of course part of the bottom of the swell cover goes over the top of the front jockey so that takes up a bit. I don't know if I'd have the guts to try this, although I'm tempted. None of these old swell fork saddles have welts, but this is the widest swell I've worked on. It has a 6" cantle and 6" gullet width, which is wider than many of the old ones. Tree is only fair condition, with a lot of the rawhide splitting at seams and stirrup leather cuts. I have another apart right now that may be a little older. The swells aren't as extreme, but the tree on that one is in amazing condition for it's age. Tight and solid, no splitting, and a beautiful job of rawhiding. It could safely be ridden if a horse could be found that it would fit. Man I love working on these old saddles.

[kseidel]

Thanks for the pics Big Souix. It is amazing what master saddlemakers from the turn of the last century were doing with saddles. This is proof that wide undercut swells can be covered without a welt if the craftsman is skilled enough! I have sweated a no welt cover on a 15" low moose swell, but that is the most radical that I have tried without welts. Most of the vintage saddles that I have restored with "bear trap" swells have had welts or blind stitches. Not many like this one without welts.

[rktaylor]

Big Sioux,

I think I will pass on those swells. That is well outside my amateur status.

Keith,

I am leaning against lacing now, but I wanted to get clarification on your advice. Are you saying that the lacing should not get too far above the purple line in this photo? What about if I laced it down the green line. I think I should be able to stretch it around the top corner and lace the slack below it. I was planning to lace them with latigo to match my saddle strings. I seem to get this 'good' ideas that someone else has already found that they are not that good. I am going to practice sewing some welts this weekend. Thanks for all the advice.

Randy

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Wow, great topic, thanks for posting it Bruce. also thanks to all the guys who have posted on this one, especially because, you all are the guys who's work I love to emulate. As for how to cover swells, all your comments seem to be right on from my experience. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone to learn from, just the books by A. Stohlman. Most of what you guys are doing seems to be in line with that. As for use with welts or without. I have done both, and the hidden stitch on a BW Cutting saddle also. I even have built a couple of saddles for one customer that wanted same tree, a CS Roper, but; one for a horse that was without, and one for a mule that was with a laced fork. They all turned out well. Seems like doing them is always a progression of, working out the wrinkles from large to small, and then all of a sudden, you are done! Anyway, it is great to hear all of the comments that you guys have posted, and as always, I try to learn from what I hear and see of your work. Thanks for your posts.

Bob

P.S. here are those two that are on the same style tree, but; done different.

[kseidel]

Keith,

I am leaning against lacing now, but I wanted to get clarification on your advice. Are you saying that the lacing should not get too far above the purple line in this photo? What about if I laced it down the green line. I think I should be able to stretch it around the top corner and lace the slack below it. I was planning to lace them with latigo to match my saddle strings. I seem to get this 'good' ideas that someone else has already found that they are not that good. I am going to practice sewing some welts this weekend. Thanks for all the advice.

Randy

You can put your welt anywhere that you want I've even seen a Visalia with the welt on the back in the leg cut! As far as height, you can go higher than the purple line, even as high as a hole above the green line. Just keep it below the top line if the swell. The thicker the lace, the more it will stick out and interrupt the profile of the swell. Rawhide as shown in your pic is thin and can be pounded flat. Latigo has to be thicker to retain strength, and cannot be pounded as flat. That is why I recommended kangaroo, as it is very thin and very strong. It will not add a thick bump at your welt. Remember, the lace is not just on the outside, but underneath as well. This magnifies the bump created with a lace welt. Kangaroo will also wear much better than latigo.

[kseidel]

Bob's saddle pictures 018.jpgPicture.jpgWow, great topic, thanks for posting it Bruce. also thanks to all the guys who have posted on this one, especially because, you all are the guys who's work I love to emulate. As for how to cover swells, all your comments seem to be right on from my experience. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone to learn from, just the books by A. Stohlman. Most of what you guys are doing seems to be in line with that. As for use with welts or without. I have done both, and the hidden stitch on a BW Cutting saddle also. I even have built a couple of saddles for one customer that wanted same tree, a CS Roper, but; one for a horse that was without, and one for a mule that was with a laced fork. They all turned out well. Seems like doing them is always a progression of, working out the wrinkles from large to small, and then all of a sudden, you are done! Anyway, it is great to hear all of the comments that you guys have posted, and as always, I try to learn from what I hear and see of your work. Thanks for your posts.

Bob

P.S. here are those two that are on the same style tree, but; done different.

Nice job on your swell covers Bob. Your laced welt is a good example of lacing a bit too high. Stopping a hole or two lower would help the welt follow the swell profile more smoothly. No offense intended!

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Thanks Keith for the advice. No offense taken. As I have said, I love to see your work and try to learn from it. Your critique of any of my work only serves to make it better.

Thanks again.

Bob

[screed]

What oz kangaroo lace does everybody recommend to lace up swells?

Thanks in advance

[oltoot]

This certainly illustrates that there are few standards in the field of saddlemaking. The front discussion is sort of a recap of the history of tanning, changes in cattle and thus leather and the spirit of challenge and the oneupsmanship that drives the male dominated field. All that said, here's another view on the fork covering world. I tried to remember the times that I have had a customer request a particular mode and the only times I could remember someone being specific was about a half dozen who have specified laced swells and some have said no lacing at the back of the horn. I have covered Bowman type fronts,Modified Assns, Buster Welch's and swell forks of 12" and less without welts. My self imposed breaking point is when I must use too light or spongy leather, then use a welt to maintain personally imposed standards. Welting method once decision is made to welt: I was first taught to do folded, hand sewn welts, which amazingly was my welt of choice while I didn't have a stitcher. The same old man that had showed me the hand sewn, folded welts also employed a machine sewn, single ply welt and I would go that way for a long time after I got a stitcher (Union Lock). Lately I have been using a machine sewn, folded welt with great succes. That's my story and I'm sticken to it. Yes and no to the would you charge more ? I am of the diehard breed that votes for simplicity and not specificity. I have noticed that just about everything would be more than we commonly allocate to it if we were to start keeping track of all that kind of thing. Personally, I try to keep the price of the big ticket items in $50 increments, and try to maximize responding to requests for something that differs from the norm as included but knowing that some will end up as add ons. Pricing leather work is a pretty complex issue. Consider the world of braiding, when we make the first few items for sale, we don't usually say that we will charge the most for an item when we are still experimenting with different approaches to string making, twisted vs braided cores, managing rawhide readiness etc and plan on reducing the price once preliminary hurdles are overcome and we have received the recognition and endorsement of our peers. And then there is the working, using gear vs museum or collector quality dilemma. I am personally greatful for the cowboy mentality which feels and even proclaims that life is too short to work with ugly tack, I second that motion vigorously even though I get a special discount. I'd like to think that I would feel that way even if I didn't get the special discount rate. And through it all long live wades.

Edited August 11, 2014 by oltoot