Neatsfoot oil vs. Neatsfoot compound

[MikeRock]

Looking for the arguments against Neatsfoot compound.  My Amish harness guy is dead against compound, as were my former Amish harness shop buddies.  They argued that it rotted linen thread over time, causing some dramatic failures.

Any comments?  My local farm store used to carry pure Neatsfoot in gallons, but now only stocks Compound. 

God bless

[Dwight]

Remember the word "compound" . . . it's got some  neatsfoot oil in it . . . but the rest is just what ever was around at the time the order needed to be filled.

I'd  pour it on the saddles and in the tanks of a bunch of bikers I don't like . . . that's the only use I have for it.

May God bless,

Dwight

[MikeRock]

Dwight,

You echoed my thoughts..... 

God bless, SIR!!

[TomE]

I haven’t used compound but the Stohlmans mention (Encyclopedia of Saddle Making) they used the compound a lot without any bad effects although pure neatsfoot oil is no doubt the best. 

[badhatter1005]

Unfortunately some of the chems that they add to the compound can cause a breakdown in the tanning process of your leather. Might not be noticeable at first but after a while you will start to notice the wear. Same thing with mink oil. Stuff smells great and for a quick fix is fine however pure needs foot oil is definitely the way to go.

[fredk]

We have been testing NFO compound for almost a year now. No adverse affects on the test pieces

[SUP]

A lot of the negative publicity for Neatsfoot compound has been through hearsay. It is usually a case of, 'I heard...' and,  'Old-timers or longtime leather workers say..." who probably heard it from the other old-timers and so on. Even when people say it rotted something, they do not mention what else was used or how the item was used. Besides, synthetic thread does not rot. Natural fibre will, more with natural oils than with  silicones on them, which might actually be protective. Pure Neatsfoot oil is fine as long as you don't overdo it. Neatsfoot compound has silicones in it, along with other additives, which will probably have some protective effect. Just because silicones and other synthetic materials were unknown in past times, it does not mean they are bad. Many times, manufacturers and sellers of products spread misinformation about their competitor's products. I suspect that this could be how all the rumours about Neatsfoot compound started. Many of the ingredients in  Neatsfoot compound are also present in other products used to make leather shiny or water resistant or waterproof. Even so called conditioners that are popular, have the same or similar ingredients. e.g. Aussie conditioner which has a good amount of petroleum jelly!!

 

Edited September 3 by SUP

[TomE]

54 minutes ago, SUP said:

A lot of the negative publicity for Neatsfoot compound has been through hearsay. It is usually a case of, 'I heard...' and,  'Old-timers or longtime leather workers say..." who probably heard it from the other old-timers and so on. Even when people say it rotted something, they do not mention what else was used or how the item was used. Besides, synthetic thread does not rot. Natural fibre will, more with natural oils than with  silicones on them, which might actually be protective. Pure Neatsfoot oil is fine as long as you don't overdo it. Neatsfoot compound has silicones in it, along with other additives, which will probably have some protective effect. Just because silicones and other synthetic materials were unknown in past times, it does not mean they are bad. Many times, manufacturers and sellers of products spread misinformation about their competitor's products. I suspect that this could be how all the rumours about Neatsfoot compound started. Many of the ingredients in  Neatsfoot compound are also present in other products used to make leather shiny or water resistant or waterproof. Even so called conditioners that are popular, have the same or similar ingredients. e.g. Aussie conditioner which has a good amount of petroleum jelly!!

 

Yes, the only adverse effect I've seen is when a trainer soaked some of our pony tack in neatsfoot compound and made it permanently spongey and sticky to the touch.  Probably would have had the same outcome by soaking - over oiling - in pure neatsfoot oil.  The idea of hot oiling (heating neatsfoot oil in a crock pot before applying) boggles my mind.  I would think if the oil isn't absorbed at room temperature then it isn't needed.

[SUP]

Yes. And that would have been the effect of the Neatsfoot oil, not the additives. One has to be very careful with Neatsfoot oil as it can turn leather very soft and limp. I solved that on one piece of leather by keeping it under a candle warmer for a couple of hours. It stiffened up the leather so that it was at least useable. I put that tip on using a candle warmer up here as soon as I discovered it, though I don't know whether anyone took it seriously.  

Maybe the Neatsfoot oil needs to be warmed when used on thicker, stiffer leather. I don't use leather that is thicker than about 6 oz.  so cannot say anything about that. 

Natural fibres will rot over time, no matter what one does to protect it. That is why I use synthetic thread. More practical.

 

Edited September 3 by SUP

[RidgebackCustoms]

Not speaking to the structural / protective effects, but when oiling carved work I find it easier to get a more even (although not as dark) color using the compound.

I think because it is less viscous.

[jcuk]

Pure or compound over use it and it will saturate your work. So which ever you use make sure you use it in moderation because it will loosen the fibres in the leather and in a lot of cases rendering some things useless especially in horse tack very hard to get it back to how it was, best best way i have found is neglect don't feed it with anything else for a good while and even that not fool proof. One other thing i have seen lazy people just use it to clean their tack every day after a while some horses skin started to blister in some of the places the tack came into contact with the horse skin so also be careful on that too. As for heating it yes it is best to heat only to a point where luke/tepid warm, it will help penetrate the fibres of the leather, the same way as you would re-wax a waxed jacket you heat the bees wax up or what ever solutions you maybe using. Again don't over do it either should be okay.

Hope this helps

JCUK

 

[TomE]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

Yes. And that would have been the effect of the Neatsfoot oil, not the additives. One has to be very careful with Neatsfoot oil as it can turn leather very soft and limp. I solved that on one piece of leather by keeping it under a candle warmer for a couple of hours. It stiffened up the leather so that it was at least useable. I put that tip on using a candle warmer up here as soon as I discovered it, though I don't know whether anyone took it seriously.  

Maybe the Neatsfoot oil needs to be warmed when used on thicker, stiffer leather. I don't use leather that is thicker than about 6 oz.  so cannot say anything about that. 

Natural fibres will rot over time, no matter what one does to protect it. That is why I use synthetic thread. More practical.

 

I routinely oil bridle leather that is 9-12 oz.  A light coat at the end of the project.  It soaks right in and softens the leather a little, which is what I'm after. Don't need to apply heat.  Even harness leather that is loaded with fats and oils will take up neatsfoot oil at room temp.

Jason Timmermans did a systematic study of leather hardening methods.  He's written articles for the Leather Crafter's Journal and published this online. https://medium.com/@jasontimmermans/a-comparative-study-of-leather-hardening-techniques-16-methods-tested-and-novel-approaches-8574e571f619

[Dwight]

In one of John Bianchi's videos . . . he finished up a single holster  cowboy rig . . . 

He had not dyed it yet . . . just finished the construction.

His final "construction" step was to dip it in a stainless steel container of neatsfoot oil that was in his statement . . . warmed.

Quite honestly . . . due to his overall success at selling hundreds of thousands of leather products . . . I just think I'll believe him before some  internet cowboy who may have made a belt and wallet. 

He considered his leather products worth the few extra pennies to use the real stuff.  Maybe being cheap is more important to other folks.

May God bless,

Dwight

[SUP]

@TomE Oh! So even for thicker, heavier leathers you don't need to warm the oil. Thank you. I did not know that.

I cannot access that article on hardening leather. Do you have another link? I am not subscribed with Medium.

 

 "Maybe being cheap is more important to other folks." 

 It might not always a question of being cheap, @Dwight Sometimes, Neatsfoot oil is not available since stores are increasingly selling the compound and not the pure oil. And some people actually prefer Neatsfoot compound to Neatsfoot oil. I have met a couple of people who do. 

Anyway, personally, I just do what I think is best for me, based my own range of knowledge and experience. Everyone does the same, I should think. Who knows who is completely correct or completely wrong, or if there is even any such thing? As long as none of us completely destroys our leather, and I doubt anyone has, using Neatsfoot compound vs oil 

 

Edited September 3 by SUP

[fredk]

3 hours ago, TomE said:

I routinely oil bridle leather that is 9-12 oz.  A light coat at the end of the project.  It soaks right in and softens the leather a little, which is what I'm after. Don't need to apply heat.  Even harness leather that is loaded with fats and oils will take up neatsfoot oil at room temp.

But you are in an area which by consideration of other areas is warmer. My average summer temperature is 15* -18* C = about 59* - 64* F, winter drops to 1* - 4* C / 33* - 39* F.    My room temperature is 18* C,  and that is warm for me. So you see, some of us need to warm the NFO up otherwise its as thick as treacle

Edited September 3 by fredk

[SUP]

23 minutes ago, fredk said:

My average summer temperature is 15* -18* C = about 59* - 64* F, winter drops to 1* - 4* C / 33* - 39* F.

Of course! Never thought of that! 

@fredk Is there a difference in the thickening of Neatsfoot oil and Neatsfoot compound when it is cold?

Edited September 3 by SUP

[fredk]

A slight difference; NFO pure goes slightly thicker than NFO compound

[TomE]

4 hours ago, SUP said:

 

I cannot access that article on hardening leather. Do you have another link? I am not subscribed with Medium.

 

I am able to read the article after dismissing the popup window inviting me to subscribe.  The only other source I know of is his articles in the Leather Crafters Journal.  

[AlZilla]

The MSDS for NFO Compound only says it's 60 to 100% Mineral Oil.

SDS Neatsfoot Cmpd 10102016.pdf

[SUP]

@TomE I could read it too. Informative article! 

@AlZilla Yes I saw that. Others say 'Neatsfoot oil >= 10%'  in the ingredient list. 

https://www.msdsdigital.com/system/files/BR Neatsfoot Oil Compound.pdf

Neatsfoot compound probably started as neatsfoot oil with additives and ended up being additives with a little Neatsfoot oil in it! LOL The amount of Neatsfoot oil probably differs in different brands but I bet it is very low.  The compounds usually have other ingredients that the companies keep as a 'proprietary  blend'. 

And if the additives are just mineral oil, I'm fine with it. 

 

Edited September 4 by SUP

[TomE]

While we're at it, what about Fiebing's Saddle Oil?  It contains silicon oils and ?  I use it on work boots and it leaves them dark and oily. Does anyone use it on saddles or other veg tan leather?  

I was recently contacted by someone who wanted me to clean their dressage saddle and replace the billets.  They had applied lots (?) of Saddle Oil to soften the leather and weren't happy with the results.  I didn't see the saddle and told them to bring it to me after they clean it thoroughly with detergent (Murphy's Oil Soap, castile soap, or dish washing liquid) then clean it again with saddle soap and lots of clean water.

[SUP]

@TomE, I have included the SDS for Fiebing's Saddle oil below.

https://fiebing.com/download/soil00p016z-fiebings-silicone-lanolin-saddle-oil/?wpdmdl=13234&refresh=66d8c0e9066dd1725481193

The solvent seems to be the main ingredient! Maybe that is why applying too much of it give bad results. 

 

Edited September 4 by SUP

[AlZilla]

6 hours ago, TomE said:

While we're at it, what about Fiebing's Saddle Oil?  It contains silicon oils and ?  I use it on work boots and it leaves them dark and oily. Does anyone use it on saddles or other veg tan leather?  

I was recently contacted by someone who wanted me to clean their dressage saddle and replace the billets.  They had applied lots (?) of Saddle Oil to soften the leather and weren't happy with the results.  I didn't see the saddle and told them to bring it to me after they clean it thoroughly with detergent (Murphy's Oil Soap, castile soap, or dish washing liquid) then clean it again with saddle soap and lots of clean water.

Had it in my hand today. "Leather oils, silicone and lanolin compounded for leather items".

[SUP]

3 hours ago, AlZilla said:

Leather oils, silicone and lanolin compounded for leather items"

I wonder what they mean by 'leather oils'?

[dikman]

20 hours ago, SUP said:

I wonder what they mean by 'leather oils'?

Whatever they want it to? It's a very vague term but sounds good to the uninformed. Based on looking at the MSDS for many such products it's a safe bet that the major constituent of virtually all of these products is the ubiquitous mineral oil. Probably the cheapest bulk oil for them to use. Add (very) small amounts of lanolin, beeswax or some other natural product, along with something to make it smell nice, and you have a relatively cheap-to-make product that is often described as "all-natural ingredients" and can be sold for a high profit margin.