Stubben Saddle Billets

[TomE]

Learned something new this week.  This children's jumping saddle is a Stubben Edelweiss CS that needed new billets.  I am familiar with saddles that have stitching or screws to secure the front end of the panel.  It is usually necessary to drop the front of the panel off the points of the tree to access the stitching on the billets.  This saddle had no stitching or screws visible, so I contacted Jack Stewart who is the saddler and service manager for Stubben North America.  He replied within minutes on a Saturday explaining the whole process.  Thank you, Jack!  To access the billets on this saddle it's necessary to cut the lacing on the back of the panel then remove staples and peel the gullet forward in order to expose staples that secure the front of the panel to the tree.  Once all the staples are out the panel can be removed and the billets are easy to swap out.  I made them out of 11-12 oz Hermann Oak harness leather.  This project gave me an excuse to buy  a pneumatic stapler to drive the 1/4" x 3/4" crown staples holding the gullet and the ends of the panel on the tree.  I had already quoted a price to the client for this repair, but it was more involved than I realized.  The price of an education.

[DieselTech]

Tom that looks like a complicated process to repair. Way above my pay grade. 

So did you already repair this saddle or in the process of repairing. 

Thanks. Maybe I will learn something.

[TomE]

1 hour ago, DieselTech said:

Tom that looks like a complicated process to repair. Way above my pay grade. 

So did you already repair this saddle or in the process of repairing. 

Thanks. Maybe I will learn something.

Just finished the repair today.  I didn't take a picture of sewing the new billets (girth straps) on the web.  In the second picture, you can see the white nylon webbing with the new billets attached.  The stitching is hidden under the flap, which is why all this has to come apart to change out the billets.  Jumping saddles have 6 billets but only 4 are buckled to the girth at a time.  Allows for some adjustment.  The 3rd picture shows how the panel is attached to the back of the seat by "lacing" with heavy thread in a zig-zag pattern.  The thread is run through all the holes before pulling it tight to draw the panel tightly against the seat.  The panel serves as padding to cushion the saddle on the horse's back.  It is filled with wool flocking that can be adjusted (add or remove wool) to fit a horse's back.   You can see the whole panel in the lower part of the 1st picture.  it has 2 pockets that fit over the points of the tree (the curved metal piece in first picture with 2 leather pads on the tips of the points that fit into the pockets of the panel.  English saddles are sort of like leather upolstery.

[DieselTech]

10 minutes ago, TomE said:

Just finished the repair today.  I didn't take a picture of sewing the new billets (girth straps) on the web.  In the second picture, you can see the white nylon webbing with the new billets attached.  The stitching is hidden under the flap, which is why all this has to come apart to change out the billets.  Jumping saddles have 6 billets but only 4 are buckled to the girth at a time.  Allows for some adjustment.  The 3rd picture shows how the panel is attached to the back of the seat by "lacing" with heavy thread in a zig-zag pattern.  The thread is run through all the holes before pulling it tight to draw the panel tightly against the seat.  The panel serves as padding to cushion the saddle on the horse's back.  It is filled with wool flocking that can be adjusted (add or remove wool) to fit a horse's back.   You can see the whole panel in the lower part of the 1st picture.  it has 2 pockets that fit over the points of the tree (the curved metal piece in first picture with 2 leather pads on the tips of the points that fit into the pockets of the panel.  English saddles are sort of like leather upolstery.

Thanks TomE for giving me a small lesson in saddle construction. So is the white nylon webbing screwed or stapled to the base of the saddle pan? Lmao or is it called saddle tree? 

Thanks again for the detailed write up. At least I got a few pics to look back on if I ever see that type of saddle.

[TomE]

1 hour ago, DieselTech said:

Thanks TomE for giving me a small lesson in saddle construction. So is the white nylon webbing screwed or stapled to the base of the saddle pan? Lmao or is it called saddle tree? 

Thanks again for the detailed write up. At least I got a few pics to look back on if I ever see that type of saddle.

It's a tree.  Traditionally made of spruce and steel.  This one is a plastic material and steel.  The longer webs that run lengthwise support the seat (like a hammock), and the webs running side to side attach to the billets.    

[DieselTech]

31 minutes ago, TomE said:

It's a tree.  Traditionally made of spruce and steel.  This one is a plastic material and steel.  The longer webs that run lengthwise support the seat (like a hammock), and the webs running side to side attach to the billets.    

Thanks. Heck someday I hope to build a saddle. Just so i can say I made one.

I'm curious how many sides of leather it takes to build a saddle? Plus probably need multiple weights of leather as well. 

[Mulesaw]

Really nice job!

Some of the European saddles have the billet attached to the tree with a copper rivet. and I have seen a single one that was attached using a screw. 
When I have to replace them, I check first if it is possible to skive in a new piece of leather, or if I have to take apart the fwd part of the saddle to get the boom out (the cross stiffener).

I don't know why they are made this way. The system where you can sew it onto the heavy nylon webbing works really well, but they must have their reasons for not always wanting to do it that way on the fwd billt.

Brgds Jonas

[TomE]

8 hours ago, DieselTech said:

Thanks. Heck someday I hope to build a saddle. Just so i can say I made one.

I'm curious how many sides of leather it takes to build a saddle? Plus probably need multiple weights of leather as well. 

Stohlman's Encyclopedia of saddle making is a fairly complete description of western saddle making, from the perspective of someone who hasn't built a saddle.  There are also books and DVDs at the Leather Crafters Journal online store.  The only references I've found for English saddle making are old books.  Steinke's book "Repair Your Own Saddlery and Harness is useful, but becoming rare and expensive.

[TomE]

5 hours ago, Mulesaw said:

Really nice job!

Some of the European saddles have the billet attached to the tree with a copper rivet. and I have seen a single one that was attached using a screw. 
When I have to replace them, I check first if it is possible to skive in a new piece of leather, or if I have to take apart the fwd part of the saddle to get the boom out (the cross stiffener).

I don't know why they are made this way. The system where you can sew it onto the heavy nylon webbing works really well, but they must have their reasons for not always wanting to do it that way on the fwd billt.

Brgds Jonas

Thanks Jonas!  I recently replaced the billets on a dressage saddle that had the front billet directly riveted to the tree, instead of a short web riveted to the tree.  I ended up buying 3/16" solid aluminum rivets to match existing, and a dome shaped rivet setter that fits on an air hammer.  Worked out fine after I practiced setting rivets.  On this saddle I learned how to use a pneumatic staple gun.  Decreased the air pressure to ~55 psi so it would drive the 1/4 x 3/4" staples into oak with a piece of 6 oz leather on top, without damaging the leather. Once I got it dialed in, it worked well driving staples into the plastic tree.

[Goldshot Ron]

Tom,

How long did this operation take, and what did you charge?  There are few, if any, English repair people in my area.  I have requests for repairs, but I really do not know what I am doing, and it takes time to figure out how to take the different saddles apart.  So, I seldom say yes to requests.

What I hear you saying is that instead of the stitching in front along the swell it is along the rear?  Is there any alternative, other than purchasing a stapler, to reinstall the pieces of the saddle that have to be removed?

Thanks Ron

[TomE]

I normally charge $150 to change billets, which is what I quoted to this client.  I figure about 1 hr to make the billets - edge finishing, punching 6-7 buckle holes and 12 holes for sewing onto the webs.  Dressage saddles have 4 billets (~2 ft long) and jumping saddles have 6 billets (~1 foot long).  Another 1-1/2 hrs to disassemble the panel, sew the billets, and restitch the front of the panel. Materials are 6-8 feet of 1" strap from the best part of the hide, some thread, and staples.  Some saddles have surprises like a billet that is directly riveted to the tree.

For sewing the billets, I use a single needle backstitch with doubled up 0.040" waxed polyester thread from the Maine Thread Co.  The billets are pre-punched with 6 holes in 2 lines.  I avoid pushing an awl through the webs so I don't cut the threads.  The backstitch pattern gathers more threads per stitch on the backside when sewing leather to woven fabric.

This saddle took considerably longer to completely remove the panel - cut the lacing in back, remove ~15 staples - and then to restaple and lace the panel to the back of the seat.  All this disassembly was required to expose 4 staples that attach the 2 tabs on the front of the panel (see in picture above) to the tree. 

I think my prices will be increasing.  I've seen saddlers listing a price of $180-$200 for changing billets.  I messaged Stubben's saddler/service manager about this particular saddle.  He said it is the most difficult construction that he deals with (PIA in his words) and he charges $300 for this type.

[Goldshot Ron]

Thanks Tom,  that's helpful information.

[Mulesaw]

It is a strange construction, I am also most used to saddles that are stitched in the fwd part. 

I have repaired a couple of Passier Mono Optimum dressage saddles lately. It is admittedly a professional rider that uses them so they see a lot of working hours. But I think that the main course of most of the wear that I see on those particular saddles are due to lack of cleaning.

Most people happily oil away on their saddles and give them nourishing creme etc. But the very fine dust that comes from riding in a riding house or on a dusty track gets stuck in that grease/oil and soon starts acting like very fine sandpaper. It also goes on the boots, and pretty soon the lower part of the saddle flaps wear through. 

I have tried to tell her as diplomatic as I can, but it is kind of hard to break the truth to someone when they haven't even asked why I think the saddles look the way they do. I mean if I was a customer I'd probably feel insulted if someone kind of accused me of not cleaning my stuff thoroughly. 
It is a different matter if they genuinely ask: Why do you think this happens? Then I'd be able to show them where the dust and grease accumulates and scrape a bit if it of and make them feel it between two nails that it really is abrasive. I think that would give them a better understanding of the importance of cleaning the tack - not just grease it.

Before I started the last repair job, I cleaned it the best I could, but I didn't want to use an hour or so on that without having cleared it with the customer, but it still helped a lot as I could see.

Brgds Jonas

[TomE]

@Mulesaw  That's a good point, Jonas.  In an interview with an Olympic groom, who was retiring after working for several well known riders over the years, she mentioned that she uses dilute houshold ammonia to cut through the sweat and scum on tack before futher cleaning and conditioning.  Ammonia might also clean up an oil/greasy surface caused by inadequate care.  It is interesting to me to read discussions proposing to only use "natural" and pH balanced products for tack care, in light of how leather is tanned and the strength of the bonds that join the collagen fibers in tanned leather.  My main concern would be removing too much of the oils and fats in the leather, but I think we have solutions for that problem.

Edited September 15 by TomE

[Mulesaw]

@TomE Good idea with diluted ammonia, I just used grated soap and tepid water, but I had troubles getting the old "caked" grease off. So the ammonia might be a better choice for a start cleaning. And I normally give the saddles a light touch over with grease afterwards anyway, so they look nice and the customer can see that I care about their tack. - so removing a bit of oil/grease in the cleaning process wouldn't be a big deal since it will be reapplied :-)

Brgds Jonas

[Goldshot Ron]

I use to have a formula for a simple cleaner using: water, ammonia, and a few drops of Ivory dish soap.  It was suggested in a restoration article I read many years ago.  I do not remember the person who suggested it, but I have used it on real greasy leather and it worked well.  

[Mulesaw]

7 hours ago, Goldshot Ron said:

I use to have a formula for a simple cleaner using: water, ammonia, and a few drops of Ivory dish soap.  It was suggested in a restoration article I read many years ago.  I do not remember the person who suggested it, but I have used it on real greasy leather and it worked well.  

Thanks for the tip, sounds like a doable recipe (not something with drops of unicorn blood and tailfeathers of a speckled Kiwibird :-)

Brgds Jonas

 

[jcuk]

Oh yes the rabbit warren of English saddles different manufacturing techniques from country to country or even just different companies, sometimes even the same make of saddle owned by two different riders can throw up some of things making you think how they have done this, been there as well scratching my head at times but as you say its an education at times and a major PIA. Good job on the repair. 

On 9/13/2024 at 6:43 AM, Mulesaw said:

Some of the European saddles have the billet attached to the tree with a copper rivet. and I have seen a single one that was attached using a screw.

I am not a fan of this think its just to save a few pennies and a small bit of time. I am under the impression the riveted/screwed billet is like the spare wheel in your car it will get you home it not to be used long term if one of stitched billets have broken.  

Hope this helps

JCUK

[TomE]

2 hours ago, jcuk said:

Oh yes the rabbit warren of English saddles different manufacturing techniques from country to country or even just different companies, sometimes even the same make of saddle owned by two different riders can throw up some of things making you think how they have done this, been there as well scratching my head at times but as you say its an education at times and a major PIA. Good job on the repair. 

I am not a fan of this think its just to save a few pennies and a small bit of time. I am under the impression the riveted/screwed billet is like the spare wheel in your car it will get you home it not to be used long term if one of stitched billets have broken.  

Hope this helps

JCUK

I am now the proud owner of a pneumatic rivet setter and stapler. Maybe I can go into the upohlstery business.   

Wish I could find more formal instruction and references on building English saddles.  I was told that the books by Shields ("To Handmake a Saddle") and Davis ("The Saddler") are hopelessly out of date, but I find them interesting even if only historical.  Maybe the old construction methods are superior?  

[Mulesaw]

@TomE

I just remembered that I once downloaded this paper on how to build an English saddle.

I found it in an old tread on this forum

Scroll down to the 2nd last comment. There is a link for the pdf there. The first link is dead, but down there the Moderator Northmount added it.

Have fun reading it.

Brgds Jonas

[jcuk]

I attended a saddle making where instead of tacking the saddle webbing to the tree we used a stapler to attach the webbing, so i did the same had to have one only mine is electric picked up off EBAY it was a steal it does save time although not doing as much saddle work these days busy setting a new workshop up. Most of the saddles i work on are race exercise saddles they can suffer some serious neglect and abuse.

Regards JCUK

 

[TomE]

@Mulesaw  Thanks, Jonas!  I do have that book, and it's nice to have a digital copy as well.  I am always on the lookout for books on making English saddlery and tack.

 

3 hours ago, jcuk said:

I attended a saddle making where instead of tacking the saddle webbing to the tree we used a stapler to attach the webbing, so i did the same had to have one only mine is electric picked up off EBAY it was a steal it does save time although not doing as much saddle work these days busy setting a new workshop up. Most of the saddles i work on are race exercise saddles they can suffer some serious neglect and abuse.

Regards JCUK

 

The electric stapler would have been a good choice, since I needed to decrease the air pressure to a minimum to avoid driving staples through the leather.  We have Harbor Freight discount stores here for cheap tools made in China.  My stapler cost $39 and I think it will last for as long as I need it.  I already had a portable air compressor.  Used to be a car guy before my wife conscripted me to be her farm hand. Keep us informed about what is coming out of your workshop.  Always interested in seeing your work and getting advice.

[jcuk]

On 9/16/2024 at 8:21 PM, TomE said:

@Mulesaw  Thanks, Jonas!  I do have that book, and it's nice to have a digital copy as well.  I am always on the lookout for books on making English saddlery and tack.

 

The electric stapler would have been a good choice, since I needed to decrease the air pressure to a minimum to avoid driving staples through the leather.  We have Harbor Freight discount stores here for cheap tools made in China.  My stapler cost $39 and I think it will last for as long as I need it.  I already had a portable air compressor.  Used to be a car guy before my wife conscripted me to be her farm hand. Keep us informed about what is coming out of your workshop.  Always interested in seeing your work and getting advice.

The stapler i got from eBay is this Maestri ME4000 Carpet Fitters Staple Gun at the time the list price was stupid money, but saw it on eBay something like £70 no one else bid on it so it was a steal. I see you said you make your own billets, how are you marking and making the stitching holes. I used to make mine from stirrup butts then i changed that and just brought them from Abbey, raw hide ones brought lots of them don't think they carry them now they are really strong and not so bulky another good option are buffalo billets strong too a lot of saddlers swear by them and are used a lot on race exercise saddles but prefer the raw hide ones.

Regards JCUK 

[TomE]

Thanks for your comments, @jcuk.  For now I have settled on 12 oz Hermann Oak harness leather for billets.  It is firm and clients have been satisfied with the job.  The shipping costs from Abbey England kill my ability to be competitive on price for the billets.  I've been pre-punching the billets with a #00 mini punch (drive punch) from CS Osborne and sewing with doubled up 0.040" waxed polypropylene thread using a single needle backstitch. 

[jcuk]

16 hours ago, TomE said:

Thanks for your comments, @jcuk.  For now I have settled on 12 oz Hermann Oak harness leather for billets.  It is firm and clients have been satisfied with the job.  The shipping costs from Abbey England kill my ability to be competitive on price for the billets.  I've been pre-punching the billets with a #00 mini punch (drive punch) from CS Osborne and sewing with doubled up 0.040" waxed polypropylene thread using a single needle backstitch. 

No i was only saying i get them from Abbey because i was cutting mine from stirrup butts and ending up bits left over that were getting thrown in the scrape bin for later repairs but they slowly built up ended with loads of unused off cuts because they in reality probably odd lengths and could not be used for any thing other than other than splitting them down for use for making loops which i had plenty of scrape for that anyway. There might be somewhere your side of the pond that may sell them. When i first started this game i use to use a old billet as a template to mark the holes use a bigger awl for the holes only because funds were short i only had enough to buy enough tools to make a bridle, but now have a strap pricker for that job saves time, they do differ from pricking irons, i use heavy gauge tiger thread for mine its the only time i use man made thread other than if i am recovering rubber reins on the machine where i use poly, if hand stitching i use linen. When i did my training we were taught to use 6/18 linen thread doubled but i think because the saddle webbing is man made its more abrasive than the linen thread thats why i use tiger thread now but if i had no tiger would still use 6/19 linen simply because never had any issues with it. 

 

Hope this helps

JCUK