Skiver Vacuum.

[toxo]

I've had my 801` skiver for a while now and never given it enough work to worry about the vacuum system. Having said that it has been nagging at me in the recesses of my mind and I'm now thinking I might get off my arse and feed it enough work to warrant sorting it out. Trouble is I know nothing about it or vacuum systems in general and I'm hoping some of you guys can help me out.

It's compressor driven and I have no idea how much compressor it needs to work. I have a 50litre one in my little garden shed but it's too noisy. (I have old guys either side of me). So I'm looking for the smallest silent compressor that will do the job and double as an airbrush compressor as well.

Tomorrow I think I have a long enough hose to at least make sure it works. I know I could rig up an ordinary vacuum but it would irk me if I didn't at least try to get it working. Any thoughts peeps?

[DieselTech]

Is the compressor side even needed. I guess I don't understand how that system works. Aren't you still going to need a vacuum? 

To me that looks like some type of air operated gate valve. 

I am interested in what you find out, because I will be buying a 801 type bell skiver next year, along with a 14" leather splitter. 

[andymanak]

Hi @toxo, a quick search came up with Templex vacuum generators operating at 80psi.  These vacuums are inefficient and mainly used in facilities that already run air lines. They draw from the compressed air at a large rate vs how much vacuum is drawn.  You might get away with a small compressor for short bursts of operation.  The drone of the compressor and hiss of the vac generator might cause you to want ear protection anyways.

[kgg]

8 hours ago, toxo said:

I've had my 801` skiver for a while now and never given it enough work to worry about the vacuum system.

Awfully complicated setup with compressor lines / gauges. Why not just hook a domestic or small shop vac to the end of the hose already going to the bottom of the skiver table?

kgg

[toxo]

Thanks peeps. Isn't it great to have peeps to bounce ideas around.

I've had a couple of thoughts (didn't hurt much). Firstly, a compressor system can't have an on/off switch if used with a receiver and secondly, a dedicated vac would be cheaper than a compressor.

So, thoughts on the right vac for the job? I used to have a shop wet/dry from Karcher with a plug socket incorporated so when you started your sander/planer etc it would automatically start the vac. But as always, cost is a factor so it wouldn't kill me to bend down and switch a normal vac on.

Belay that. Just realised the way it's wired up is just more problematic so just a normal vac then. 

Edited November 13 by toxo
Photo

[TomE]

I have a Techsew SK-4 bell skiver with a vacuum cabinet.  There is a retangular cutout in the table underneath the bell knife and a large, sloped metal chute that connects to the cabinet.  The cabinet has a fan mounted on the back that pulls a vacuum.  The vacuum is powerful enough to pull the skived bits out of the knife and deposit them in a rubbish bin in the cabinet.  Most of the noise is the sound of air rushing through the cabinet.  Quieter than the shop vacs I own.  There are some pictures here.

https://www.techsew.com/us/techsew-sk-4-leather-skiving-machine-with-vacuum-suction-device.html

[toxo]

6 minutes ago, TomE said:

I have a Techsew SK-4 bell skiver with a vacuum cabinet.  There is a retangular cutout in the table underneath the bell knife and a large, sloped metal chute that connects to the cabinet.  The cabinet has a fan mounted on the back that pulls a vacuum.  The vacuum is powerful enough to pull the skived bits out of the knife and deposit them in a rubbish bin in the cabinet.  Most of the noise is the sound of air rushing through the cabinet.  Quieter than the shop vacs I own.  There are some pictures here.

https://www.techsew.com/us/techsew-sk-4-leather-skiving-machine-with-vacuum-suction-device.html

Looks like a great setup Tom. They've done an excellent job.

[kgg]

33 minutes ago, toxo said:

So, thoughts on the right vac for the job?

If you have to buy a vacuum I would consider: These would be my choices on this side of the pond.

i) Small Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum 10L at $70 from Canadian Tire ( https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/maximum-vkd811sw-5-5-peak-hp-stainless-steel-wet-dry-shop-vacuum-with-hose-and-accessories-30-l-0540252p.html?rq=vaccum+cleaner  )

ii) Compact Lightweight Bagless Corded Canister Vacuum at $87 from Canadian Tire ( https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/bissell-aeroswift-compact-lightweight-bagless-corded-canister-vacuum-cleaner-0438173p.html?rq=vaccum+cleaner  )

Between the two choices the quieter setup would be the canister vacuum.

33 minutes ago, toxo said:

I used to have a shop wet/dry from Karcher with a plug socket incorporated so when you started your sander/planer etc it would automatically start the vac.

I would mount a Power Bar to the bottom of the table so the power switch is close to the front edge of the table. Then plug both the skiver and the vacuum into it. With both the Shiver and vacuum power switches in the "ON" once you flip the power bar switch both will come "ON" or "OFF" at once. Cost once again from Canadian Tire for about $9.

So for about $80 CAD (45 GDP) for a shop vac setup or $96 CAD ( 54 GDP ) you would have a simple setup.

kgg

[toxo]

3 minutes ago, kgg said:

If you have to buy a vacuum I would consider: These would be my choices on this side of the pond.

i) Small Wet/Dry Shop Vacuum 10L at $70 from Canadian Tire ( https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/maximum-vkd811sw-5-5-peak-hp-stainless-steel-wet-dry-shop-vacuum-with-hose-and-accessories-30-l-0540252p.html?rq=vaccum+cleaner  )

ii) Compact Lightweight Bagless Corded Canister Vacuum at $87 from Canadian Tire ( https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/bissell-aeroswift-compact-lightweight-bagless-corded-canister-vacuum-cleaner-0438173p.html?rq=vaccum+cleaner  )

Between the two choices the quieter setup would be the canister vacuum.

I would mount a Power Bar to the bottom of the table so the power switch is close to the front edge of the table. Then plug both the skiver and the vacuum into it. With both the Shiver and vacuum power switches in the "ON" once you flip the power bar switch both will come "ON" or "OFF" at once. Cost once again from Canadian Tire for about $9.

So for about $80 CAD (45 GDP) for a shop vac setup or $96 CAD ( 54 GDP ) you would have a simple setup.

kgg

Thanks Keith. I was actually thinking about those smaller types for the size and bagless because we're not talking dust really. I'm beginning to see the end of this.

[kgg]

1 minute ago, toxo said:

I'm beginning to see the end of this.

Great topic as I am am in the process of setting up a Con Sew DSC-4 skiver and installing that is what I was sort of planning on doing. I will be going with the shop vac method since I already have one in the area the skiver will live. My skiver table has a square hole in the table with a metal shute. I really like the setup of the hose on the bottom of your table. I think I will 3D print a new piece to cover the hole and accept the mounting of the vac hose to the opening similar to your setup.

kgg

 

[toxo]

I used to wonder what all the fuss was about vacuums when I first got my skiver until I had a piece of waste wrap around the feed roller and ruined the piece I was working on.

[toxo]

3 hours ago, kgg said:

Great topic as I am am in the process of setting up a Con Sew DSC-4 skiver and installing that is what I was sort of planning on doing. I will be going with the shop vac method since I already have one in the area the skiver will live. My skiver table has a square hole in the table with a metal shute. I really like the setup of the hose on the bottom of your table. I think I will 3D print a new piece to cover the hole and accept the mounting of the vac hose to the opening similar to your setup.

kgg

 

I'm made up me. Tried my little "Henry" vac which is very good. Undid one hose clamp and the end of the Henry was a beautiful push fit and it fitted in the available space like it belongs there. Literally within ten minutes I took a short vid to see if it was working. Watch this space.

 

Edited November 13 by toxo

[kgg]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

I'm made up me. Tried my little "Henry" vac which is very good. Undid one hose clamp and the end of the Henry was a beautiful push fit and it fitted in the available space like it belongs there.

Using what you have lying around. Just got to think outside the box. Cost ---- zero dollars. Us frugal people (cheap skates) got to stick together. Any chance of a photo of the vac hookup??

kgg

[keithski122]

5 hours ago, toxo said:

I used to wonder what all the fuss was about vacuums when I first got my skiver until I had a piece of waste wrap around the feed roller and ruined the piece I was working on.

Try changing the feed roller for a rubber one if you have the stone one fitted, I did and it stopped this problem.

[toxo]

7 minutes ago, keithski122 said:

Try changing the feed roller for a rubber one if you have the stone one fitted, I did and it stopped this problem.

Tried em all. Have a rubber one now. Steel was the worst. 

pics:

Vac nozzle.

Great fit.

Under table plate.

Angled top of pipe (brown tape around it.)

[toxo]

3 hours ago, kgg said:

Using what you have lying around. Just got to think outside the box. Cost ---- zero dollars. Us frugal people (cheap skates) got to stick together. Any chance of a photo of the vac hookup??

kgg

Sorry Keith. Tagged the pics on the end of @keithski122s answer. Thought it was you.

[kgg]

3 hours ago, toxo said:

Thought it was you.

Nice simple functional solution. No problem, all good. I get those senility moments all the time.

kgg

[RockyAussie]

16 hours ago, toxo said:

I'm made up me. Tried my little "Henry" vac which is very good. Undid one hose clamp and the end of the Henry was a beautiful push fit and it fitted in the available space like it belongs there. Literally within ten minutes I took a short vid to see if it was working. Watch this space.

 

Looks like the vac took one part but left another piece behind. There is some skives of leather still caught up around the feed wiper which is pretty common with the wipers when they are left on. As long as the vacuum is working fine you will find less problems when you remove that wiper I found. On Fortuna and FAV skiving machines they have a bell type funnel that mounts closely to the bell as shown in this next pictures which may be of some help - 

What I have done for a machine for a customer and one that I have here is to make something similar which adapts easily to the 801 type skivers.

You mark the front and side corners to get a line up position then attach the base plate to the table top -

This shows the parts which I have designed to connect up to standard 65mm pvc pipe

The idea is to run the pipe down with fittings into a collection box such as an esky cooler box for easy of handling and emptying when required.

The box has separate fitting to attach to the vacuum. Makes it a lot safer if you sharpen the blade so sparks don't destroy your vacuum cleaner.

 

[RockyAussie]

This picture shows all the parts I recommend taking out so as to remove anything that the leather skives can get caught up on. It has been tested well for over a year now with my customer and he reports that it works very well.

[toxo]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

This picture shows all the parts I recommend taking out so as to remove anything that the leather skives can get caught up on. It has been tested well for over a year now with my customer and he reports that it works very well.

I'll certainly look at those redundant pieces Brian. I wondered what good the wiper was doing when I first got the machine. The video was taken because after the first try with the vac, I could hear it gobbling up the small piece I put through it but I couldn't see it. The video shows only the second small piece I put through it. The piece that was stuck in there was already there and I think was forced in there from a previous build up of waste. I'm rather more concerned with the movement of the bell and maybe other worn bit's. It moves with the speed of the bell. So much so that it can sometimes take a chunk out of the leather when speeded up after chugging along nicely. It does an excellent job if going slowly or at a medium speed but if you slip up and go faster it will give you a different depth of skive or even take a chunk of the leather. Are there adjustable or replaceable bearings that can be seen to?

You can see the movement in the video.

Edited November 14 by toxo

[RidgebackCustoms]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:01 PM, toxo said:

Tomorrow I think I have a long enough hose to at least make sure it works. I know I could rig up an ordinary vacuum but it would irk me if I didn't at least try to get it working. Any thoughts peeps?

I see a lot of traffic on alternative ideas for vacuum, but thought I'd throw in my two cents on how these units (the original picture) work.

These type of units use high pressure air to generate a small vacuum / low pressure area just ahead of the nozzle.  Material is pulled into the nozzle in the local area and rather than being "sucked" through the hose for the majority of travel, the scrap is pushed by the compressed air along the length of travel.  They're useful when you want to push the scrap a long way or up a vertical section as pushing with compressed air is more efficient than pulling with vacuum.  I would expect to see a set up like this in more of a industrial setting where instead of consolidating the scrap near the machine, several machines are ganged together and their combined scrap is pushed away from the workers.  The unit will only run as long as the compressed air is running through the unit.  Manufacturing facility air typically sits at 80 psi or so.  Higher pressures create higher vacuum areas near the nozzle, but once in the pipeline a lower pressure would be capable of pushing the scrap.

If you wanted to use this set up you would want to mount the vacuum unit (the piece with the compressed air fitting) as close to the scrap as possible as it doesn't tend to "pull" very well compared to other vacuum options.  If not feasible, you would want the scrap to fall through the pipe with little to no bends or turns so that gravity is doing most of the work of getting the scrap near the mouth of the vacuum unit.

If I already was in a shop with compressed air/big reserve tank I would set this up with a simple on/off valve and push the flow to a scrap area farther away.  If I didn't have that already I'd probably go with one of the more conventional vacuum options (shop vac type system).

[toxo]

54 minutes ago, RidgebackCustoms said:

I see a lot of traffic on alternative ideas for vacuum, but thought I'd throw in my two cents on how these units (the original picture) work.

These type of units use high pressure air to generate a small vacuum / low pressure area just ahead of the nozzle.  Material is pulled into the nozzle in the local area and rather than being "sucked" through the hose for the majority of travel, the scrap is pushed by the compressed air along the length of travel.  They're useful when you want to push the scrap a long way or up a vertical section as pushing with compressed air is more efficient than pulling with vacuum.  I would expect to see a set up like this in more of a industrial setting where instead of consolidating the scrap near the machine, several machines are ganged together and their combined scrap is pushed away from the workers.  The unit will only run as long as the compressed air is running through the unit.  Manufacturing facility air typically sits at 80 psi or so.  Higher pressures create higher vacuum areas near the nozzle, but once in the pipeline a lower pressure would be capable of pushing the scrap.

If you wanted to use this set up you would want to mount the vacuum unit (the piece with the compressed air fitting) as close to the scrap as possible as it doesn't tend to "pull" very well compared to other vacuum options.  If not feasible, you would want the scrap to fall through the pipe with little to no bends or turns so that gravity is doing most of the work of getting the scrap near the mouth of the vacuum unit.

If I already was in a shop with compressed air/big reserve tank I would set this up with a simple on/off valve and push the flow to a scrap area farther away.  If I didn't have that already I'd probably go with one of the more conventional vacuum options (shop vac type system).

Thanks for the info. More than I've received in two years of asking. I've decided to go the simplest way with my domestic (for now) vac and it's doing a good job. I need to put a different shape to the intake nozzle because some of the chunkier skivers can get caught up.

[toxo]

6 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

This picture shows all the parts I recommend taking out so as to remove anything that the leather skives can get caught up on. It has been tested well for over a year now with my customer and he reports that it works very well.

Had it stripped down today and removed the wiper. Couldn't find anything loose or wrong except the bar on the end of the con rod was missing which was strange must've fell out today else it wouldn't have worked. Had to move the intake a bit and elongate the hole co a couple chunkier bits didn't want to go down but apart from that it's been great. Might have to treat it to a new presser foot. Is there one that leaves the center and skives down both sides of say an inch wide to make a non piping piping if you know what I mean. I think Cechaflo does it by just skiving either side and leaving the middle.

[RidgebackCustoms]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

Thanks for the info. More than I've received in two years of asking. I've decided to go the simplest way with my domestic (for now) vac and it's doing a good job. I need to put a different shape to the intake nozzle because some of the chunkier skivers can get caught up.

Here's a cool video for similar piece of equipment/design that shows some application information.  Probably more interesting than useful, but cool video.

 

 

[toxo]

21 minutes ago, RidgebackCustoms said:

Here's a cool video for similar piece of equipment/design that shows some application information.  Probably more interesting than useful, but cool video.

That is cool. So does that mean my system is worth a few bob then?