Overwhelmed - Which industrial for leather bag making

[Novalee]

Hi, all. My sincere apologies if I am not posting to the correct forum. After spending weeks researching industrial machines, I’ve grown weary and confused. A few months ago, I purchased a Juki TL-18qvp with the understanding it could handle multiple layers of 2-3 ounce leather. I’m finding that not to be the case. In hindsight, while the Juki is an awesome machine, I should have purchased an industrial to suit my particular needs. My question is which machine is best suited for my needs but still provides some room to grow? At present, my focus is on leather handbags. I use 2-3 ounce leather, but I would like the option to up weight (not super thick). So far, I’ve only used tex70 weight thread (top and bottom). I thought I would purchase the Consew 206rb-5, or Juki 1541s, but I’ve since learned that a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment might be a better option. I’m looking at Techsew 2750, Techsew 2750 pro, Cowboy CB3200, and Cobra 26. Ideally, I’d prefer a machine that could handle the project from start to finish, meaning it has the ability to sew the thinner lining fabrics like linen as well. That might exclude some of the noted options. Budget is a concern as well and would prohibit me from buying a separate flatbed machine. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!! 

[kgg]

53 minutes ago, Novalee said:

 I thought I would purchase the Consew 206rb-5, or Juki 1541s, but I’ve since learned that a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment might be a better option.

 

53 minutes ago, Novalee said:

I’m looking at Techsew 2750, Techsew 2750 pro, Cowboy CB3200, and Cobra 26.

Those machines are basically clones of the older Juki LS-341. Getting a cylinder arm with a table top attachment and there are many available would be a good all rounder. It will give sorta kinda give you the ability of a flatbed machine. Remember there is no one machine that will do everything well. My experience is that some industrial machines even though rated for V69 ( Tex70 ) really don't like it and can be really finicky with thin thread in thinner items, preferring V138 (Tex135).

What you may find is using your Juki TL-18qvp for the linings and the cylinder arm for the leather portion of your project.

Most upholstery class machines like the Juki DNU-1541S are rated typically to handle up to 3/8" of leather while the cylinder arm machines like a Juki LS-341 can handle up to about 1/2" or so of leather.

The main problem with using 2 oz leather is going to be setting up the machine, cylinder or flatbed. Getting the knot to be buried in the leather.

My Juki DNU- 1541S hates working with thin stuff that is why I have a Juki DU1181N rated for V92 but I run V138 in that machine with no problems.

If you decide to go with a flatbed I would suggest going with the Juki DNU-1541S. I have owned both the Consew 206RB-5 and the Juki DNU-1541S. In my opinion the Juki is a much better machine.

Since this is going to be expensive no matter which machine you decide on I would suggest going to a vendor with a sample of your stuff and test drive some machines.

Buy Once, Cry Once

kgg

 

[Novalee]

30 minutes ago, kgg said:

My experience is that some industrial machines even though rated for V69 ( Tex70 ) really don't like it and can be really finicky with thin thread in thinner items, preferring V138 (Tex135).

I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful reply. Trying to sort out ALL of the machines and what is or isn't necessary has proven maddening (plus feeling like I wasted a lot of money on the Juki). My Juki TL18 maxes out at Tex70, I'm told. I have no issues using heavier thread so long as it is appropriate for the leather weight.

 

34 minutes ago, kgg said:

What you may find is using your Juki TL-18qvp for the linings and the cylinder arm for the leather portion of your project.

I thought this as well. My space is somewhat limited, but I can sort that out. 

 

35 minutes ago, kgg said:

The main problem with using 2 oz leather is going to be setting up the machine, cylinder or flatbed. Getting the knot to be buried in the leather.

I chose 2 oz due to the Juki's purported capabilities. Would this be the case with ... say ... 4 or 5 oz? 

 

38 minutes ago, kgg said:

If you decide to go with a flatbed I would suggest going with the Juki DNU-1541S. I have owned both the Consew 206RB-5 and the Juki DNU-1541S. In my opinion the Juki is a much better machine.

Since this is going to be expensive no matter which machine you decide on I would suggest going to a vendor with a sample of your stuff and test drive some machines.

Buy Once, Cry Once

I was leaning toward the 1541S due to Juki's reputation, support, and resale value. I then went down the rabbit hole of cylinder arms. They are impressive. Since this IS going to be expensive no matter what, and to put you on the spot (sorry!), which would you chose in my case? I'm an enthusiastic hobbyist who is trying to start a side business. I don't see myself branching out much beyond leather handbags of all shapes and sizes ... maybe some wallets. Professionally, I am an attorney and college professor, which likely accounts for the ridiculous amount of questioning (sorry again).

Again, thank you! I've already cried once (Juki), so I'd prefer to reserve the waterworks for something unrelated to sewing machines. LOL 

[Novalee]

49 minutes ago, kgg said:

I would suggest going to a vendor with a sample of your stuff and test drive some machines.

I failed to mention that I am not finding vendor's near me in central Florida other than Juki (about 2 hours south). That seems to complicate matters.

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Novalee said:

My Juki TL18 maxes out at Tex70, I'm told. I have no issues using heavier thread so long as it is appropriate for the leather weight.

According to the spec ( https://jukiquilting.com/media/catalog/product/t/l/tl-18qvp_instruction_manual.pdf ) on page #4 your machine is only rated for V46 (Tex 45) max as it on that a domestic needle up to a #14. That did surprise me. Most domestic sewing machines can handle V69. If I'm not mistake that is usually a spec for quilting machines.

In my opinion V69 thread is the cross over point from domestic to industrial machines.

Here is a good needle size to thread size:  ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html ) which also gives the strength of the thread.

1 hour ago, Novalee said:

I chose 2 oz due to the Juki's purported capabilities. Would this be the case with ... say ... 4 or 5 oz? 

In most cases as the thickness increases it is easier to bury the thread knot with the right machine.

1 hour ago, Novalee said:

I failed to mention that I am not finding vendor's near me in central Florida other than Juki (about 2 hours south). That seems to complicate matters.

I do really like Juki machines but you can get a comparable clone for a lot less which may serve you really well. If you go the clone route ask the vendor what it is a clone of from that you can determine pretty quickly what it's capabilities are. Still unsure just post a question to the form before you buy, I'm sure someone will be able to help.

kgg

[toxo]

@Novalee Before you confuse yourself with machines you need to think a bit more about what you might want to do in the future. If it's bags that you want to do (as I do mostly) working with thin leather is fine for bags that don't need to stand up but might limit your options in the future. Having said that, even the most robust bags like satchels and briefcases don't use uber thick leather and even then it's likely to be softer than the stuff some are using on here for their saddles, holsters, gunbelts, etc. 

Just saying your machine doesn't have to handle the thickest material and usually the price goes up with the thickness. 

[AlZilla]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

According to the spec ( https://jukiquilting.com/media/catalog/product/t/l/tl-18qvp_instruction_manual.pdf ) on page #4 your machine is only rated for V46 (Tex 45) max as it on that a domestic needle up to a #14.

It sure does say #14. Other places say #18, which correlates to OP saying he used v69.  It seems like an interesting machine for it's intended purpose. They even promote it for "Bag Making", which it should handle beautifully - up to a point. It seems @Novalee's use case is just over the tipping point.

 

[Novalee]

@toxo Thanks very much for your helpful input. I definitely want to consider what I might do in the future. I don't see myself getting into saddles and such. At most, I might want to up the thickness of leather for more leather and bag/wallet options (i.e., 4-6 ounces). I do bags that stand now with the 2-3 ounce leather, but I use Decovil Heavy in certain places to achieve that look. I'm going to inquire about a Cowboy CB341 tomorrow (since I'm in the U.S.). It seems a solid option for my needs, but I'd love to hear if believe otherwise. Again, thanks for taking time to respond!

[Novalee]

@AlZilla It is indeed marketed for bag making ... even leather bag making. I've watched a number of instructional videos (some by certified dealers) saying it can take Tex70 on top and bottom and up to an 18 needle. I think you're right about me just going over the tipping point. It's really too bad. It's a great machine for other applications. 

[DieselTech]

Cobra class 26 is quite the machine too. I would consider it as a good option. 

I have not got into bag making yet. But I do have a bunch of bag templates. 

I do love my Cobra class 26 for all the wallets & belts & straps I do make. 

Also i think a cylinder arm machine is more versatile. If you do get a cylinder arm machine, I recommend you get the flatbed attachment. 

[toxo]

3 hours ago, Novalee said:

@toxo Thanks very much for your helpful input. I definitely want to consider what I might do in the future. I don't see myself getting into saddles and such. At most, I might want to up the thickness of leather for more leather and bag/wallet options (i.e., 4-6 ounces). I do bags that stand now with the 2-3 ounce leather, but I use Decovil Heavy in certain places to achieve that look. I'm going to inquire about a Cowboy CB341 tomorrow (since I'm in the U.S.). It seems a solid option for my needs, but I'd love to hear if believe otherwise. Again, thanks for taking time to respond!

I use a 341 clone myself and am very happy with it. The only fault I'm finding is the size of the feed dog hole which may be problematical with very thin leather but I intend to address that. Another point to consider is a speed reducer with a servo motor will give more torque. On mine I can dial in the whole range of speeds from very slowly to quite fast enough thank you. The downside to speed reducers can be they don't always get on with needle positioners which I like very much but am having to live without for the time being. I am learning to do without though and it's not as bad as I feared.

You seem to be on a similar journey to my own and I hope I'm not teaching Granny to suck eggs but I'll offer some advice. Save the veg tan for special. Likewise the Decovil and other stiffeners. Look to Chrome tan for some inspiration. Some leatherworkers will spend months on a project for others to say "well done", I'm not one of em. I like working with leather and being constructive and if I can get a tiny bit back on the £1,000s I've spent I'm not gonna turn it away.

When I go to my leather shops I'm always looking for coloured Chrome tan of the right thickness/temper. Saves all that dying and gives me inspiration. I'm about to tackle piping in a proper way and if I can make the piping in a colour to contrast the bag it will give me an edge. Here's a pic of some keyrings that I did while messing with a new compressor and my skiver. All different weights, Made with what I could find amongst the leather.

 

[Novalee]

@DieselTech - Thanks for weighing in! I appreciate it. If I'm not mistaken, the Cobra class 26 is similar to the Cowboy CB341 and Techsew 2750. I think I got that right. LOL They all are clones of the Juki 341, correct? So much to learn and remember. I was thinking the Cowboy would be a little lighter on the old wallet. I definitely want to include the table attachment. I don't think I could function well without it. Try your hand at bag making. I think you'll enjoy the challenge. I love it (until I can't complete my project because I don't have the right machine). 

[DieselTech]

10 minutes ago, Novalee said:

@DieselTech - Thanks for weighing in! I appreciate it. If I'm not mistaken, the Cobra class 26 is similar to the Cowboy CB341 and Techsew 2750. I think I got that right. LOL They all are clones of the Juki 341, correct? So much to learn and remember. I was thinking the Cowboy would be a little lighter on the old wallet. I definitely want to include the table attachment. I don't think I could function well without it. Try your hand at bag making. I think you'll enjoy the challenge. I love it (until I can't complete my project because I don't have the right machine). 

Thanks. Yeah some say the cobra class 26 is a hybrid of a 341 type machine. 

Yeah I guess my biggest thing that has stopped me from making bags. Is I mainly got veg-tan & most of my bag patterns are for flip/inside out type bags. Meaning they are sewn inside out & then flipped. 

I need to invest in some chrome tanned type bag leathers. 

[AlZilla]

What about the CB3200? It  says it goes from V69 to v346. Seems like that would cover the whole range.  Might need to get a narrow feed dog and throat plate for the smaller stuff.

[Novalee]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

You seem to be on a similar journey to my own and I hope I'm not teaching Granny to suck eggs but I'll offer some advice. Save the veg tan for special. Likewise the Decovil and other stiffeners. Look to Chrome tan for some inspiration. Some leatherworkers will spend months on a project for others to say "well done", I'm not one of em. I like working with leather and being constructive and if I can get a tiny bit back on the £1,000s I've spent I'm not gonna turn it away.

Thank you! I really appreciate your input based on experience. First, by "granny," are you calling me old? LOL Just kidding, but it hurt a little. Seriously, I've only ever used chrome tan. I've never messed with veg tan. I'm relatively new to leather, so I'm still in the infancy stage. I say infancy stage because I believe we never should stop learning.

Your work is fantastic! I love the creativity and bold colors. Well done!

[Novalee]

@AlZilla - I intend to call Bob at Toledo Industrial tomorrow, so I will ask about the CB3200 as well. I'm told he knows his stuff. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Novalee]

52 minutes ago, DieselTech said:

Yeah I guess my biggest thing that has stopped me from making bags. Is I mainly got veg-tan & most of my bag patterns are for flip/inside out type bags. Meaning they are sewn inside out & then flipped. 

I need to invest in some chrome tanned type bag leathers.

@DieselTech - I've only used chrome tan for bag making so far. I mainly use linen with leather accents as lining. You might like patterns that call for drop in linings (or you can modify some patterns to accommodate drop in liners). I've done those and the ones where you flip or use what they call a "birthing hole." I sort of like the drop in method so you're not scrunching up the leather. Check out Simply Classic on YouTube. Chris has a lot of videos that show bag making from start to finish. I really enjoy her content and teaching (and she has nice supplies on her website). She has some nice patterns as well. Also, American Stitchers has some cool conceal carry patterns if you're into that sort of thing.  If you end up finding a good source for chrome leather, let me know! I'm a newbie, so I'm looking to learn.

[DieselTech]

6 minutes ago, Novalee said:

@DieselTech - I've only used chrome tan for bag making so far. I mainly use linen with leather accents as lining. You might like patterns that call for drop in linings (or you can modify some patterns to accommodate drop in liners). I've done those and the ones where you flip or use what they call a "birthing hole." I sort of like the drop in method so you're not scrunching up the leather. Check out Simply Classic on YouTube. Chris has a lot of videos that show bag making from start to finish. I really enjoy her content and teaching (and she has nice supplies on her website). She has some nice patterns as well. Also, American Stitchers has some cool conceal carry patterns if you're into that sort of thing.  If you end up finding a good source for chrome leather, let me know! I'm a newbie, so I'm looking to learn.

Thanks. Yeah I recently purchased some heavy waxed canvas. 18oz I believe. 

I want to make some tote bags with the body made from waxed canvas, then the bottom, straps & pockets from leather. 

I figured tote bags would be 1 of the easier bag constructions I could learn from. 

Plus I would rather waste canvas, than leather even thou the waxed canvas is still kinda pricey. 

[Novalee]

11 minutes ago, DieselTech said:

Thanks. Yeah I recently purchased some heavy waxed canvas. 18oz I believe. 

I want to make some tote bags with the body made from waxed canvas, then the bottom, straps & pockets from leather. 

I figured tote bags would be 1 of the easier bag constructions I could learn from. 

Plus I would rather waste canvas, than leather even thou the waxed canvas is still kinda pricey. 

I haven't used waxed canvas, but it's cool stuff (and a bit pricey). I think the canvas paired with leather would look great. I've seen that look on several bags and liked it. Originally, I thought I wanted to work with some cork until I priced it. You might like SewGnar on YouTube. She does some stuff in waxed canvas, but uses a lot of cork as well. 

[Deanr]

I've been making duffle bags from a combination of chrome tan and canvas. Sometimes I use waxed canvas which I make myself. The waxed canvas is pretty easy and not too expensive. I get factory seconds from big duck canvas. I do not line them so I use 92 thread for everything. I have a sailrite lsz which does good as long as I don't use veg tan. Maybe not the best machine but works good for this application.

[DieselTech]

13 minutes ago, Deanr said:

I've been making duffle bags from a combination of chrome tan and canvas. Sometimes I use waxed canvas which I make myself. The waxed canvas is pretty easy and not too expensive. I get factory seconds from big duck canvas. I do not line them so I use 92 thread for everything. I have a sailrite lsz which does good as long as I don't use veg tan. Maybe not the best machine but works good for this application.

Nice looking duffle. Looks great!

 

[Deanr]

Thanks. Just wanted to add that the one in the picture is not waxed canvas. Sometimes the lighter color wax canvas has a dirty look.

Less appealing, more functional.

Biggest challenge is sewing that panel with the zipper on my flatbed. Basically sewing it from a flat panel into a cylinder.