how many in the group are saddle makers?

[Blake]

Hi Everyone

I'm a little curious as to how many in the group are saddle makers or are serious about becoming one.

Also where are you located?

Thanks

Blake

[ClayB]

Hi Blake,

I have made a few saddles with the help of a local saddle maker, and a couple more on my own. I took some classes in Sheridan a few years ago too. But I don't really consider myself a saddle maker. I enjoyed making the ones I did, but most of the guys around here that make saddles say most of the money is in fixing them and that is something I don't want to do. And then today a guy stopped where I was working and said " I had a wreck with my horse and tore the rear rigging off my saddle, can you fix it?" and the saddle is now in my basement.

I am in North Dakota.

I know there are several real saddle makers on this forum.

Clay

[bruce johnson]

Blake,

I live in Oakdale, CA. We are known as "The Cowboy Capital of the World". A few other towns claim it, but we have festivals and history to back it up. It is a historically a ranch and rodeo town. On the edge of the Sierra foothills, some mountain packers above us. I build, rebuild, and repair. I do a lot of other leatherwork as well. I am also a student of history, and enjoy collecting old books - cowboy poetry, true 1st person accounts, and vaquero/western history.

Bruce Johnson

[Johanna]

I counted 19 (that I know of for sure) from the member list. Come on guys, introduce yourselves. Oops, excuse me, there are three ladies on my very unofficial list.

Johanna

[gary]

I have to come clean on this one as I've lurked in the shadows long enough. I make saddles but I'm not a saddlemaker.

When I left the Army I did train with a Master Saddler. He only made English saddles. I could/can never get to grips with English saddles - find they're a bit too fiddly and not the most comfortable to ride.

I learned to ride in Namibia when I was posted there and my tutor was a German endurance rider so all the saddles were nice and comfortable. I've also ridden some military saddles in the UK and South Africa (some good, some bad, some awful). Since then I've developed a liking for American stock saddles for both me and the horse I'm riding (I feel they're kinder for long rides).

Several years ago I decided to make my own saddle which I'm still using and my horse prefers it to ones I've bought (even the really expensive ones).

I now make the odd saddle for other people (using the Stohlman and Dave Jones books) - not many, as people prefer to buy factory made because it's nice to see stacks of them in shops and they seem to like staples instead of screws and clicker-die cut parts instead of hand cut.

I still get English saddles to repair and reflock (reflocking is a pain but it has to be done).

My horse is getting on a bit and she'll need a new saddle soon as her withers are dropping (and mine too, probably) so I'm preparing to go the whole hog and put everything I've learned into her next custom-made saddle.

Just a quick question - (and I know there will be no quick answer) but which company has the best reputation for saddles trees? (You have to go a long way over here to get anything but Ralide and even they are as rare as rocking-horse pooh.) Bearing in mind that, if they're not good as getting the size right, I'll have return shipping costs, insurance and taxes to outlay.

I've been looking at Superior Saddle tree company with their ultra-hide covering (we're moving to Scotland which is wetter than my curent location) and the anti-damp/wet protection ultrahide appears to give makes it look like the front runner. Also, my contacts with Superior have been good and they've been very helpful; a couple of other companies haven't event bothered to reply to me.

And one other question - though I've ridden McClellans and some McClellan variants - if there are any McClellan afficionados reading this - how good are they as an all-round, doing-nothing-special-in-particular-just-riding, saddle for everyday use?

Good job this is in the 'Off Topic' thread as I've wandered a bit. Okay, a lot.

Gary

Edited April 6, 2007 by gary

[Ronny]

Hi, my name is Ronny and I am a saddle maker. I built my first saddle in 1972. I learned in Ariz.from several makers and later moved to Idaho where my wife and I owned the South Fork Saddle Shop in eastern Id for almost 20 years. We moved to Oklahoma 5 years ago and are semi retired. I still build around 15-20 saddles a year. I raise a couple colts a year and spend quite a bit of time roping at home.

This is my first experience post anything, so bear with me if I screw up. Later, Ronny

[David Genadek]

Blake,

I've been looking for help for months and have been getting more response on my adds from other saddle makers wanting me to send extra applicants thier way. There doesn't seem to be much interest in saddlemaking as a career anymore. There has been a shortage of saddlemakers for years. This means there is an ever growing opportunity in our industry. I know I could easily keep 15 or 20 makers going if I could find decent people instead I raise prices and give bad service to keep the orders under control. For the past several years I have been training Amish because it is type of work they like. I pay them the same as I would the English so I am very well recieved in the community but it is a lot of extra work when your crew is at a different location.

I think part of the issue is that as a rule leather workers don't charge enough for thier work. I have looked at some of the guides that are out there for pricing saddles and they are joke. Second thing you don't have to be in this to long before you realize you have to know a whole lot more about horsemanship to be successful than most saddlemakers ever dream of. Unfortunately, saddle schools teach techniques of construction but nothing in the way of saddle design theory. I have been watching a discussion on another list about saddle trees, it is very sad. How ignorant our profession must seem to serouse horseman.

David Genadek

[Blake]

Wow! I thought we would get more replies.

Hi Ronny. Welcome to the group. We will look forward to your posts. Who did you work with while you were in Arizona?

Hey Bruce. I thought Bandera Texas was the Cowboy Capital? at least they said it was?

Is anyone planning to be in Texas for the Boot and Saddle Makers Roundup this fall? I was kind of thinking that if enough people on the list responded and some were going then we might plan to get together for a sassparilla during the show.

Blake

[Blake]

Just a quick question - (and I know there will be no quick answer) but which company has the best reputation for saddles trees? (You have to go a long way over here to get anything but Ralide and even they are as rare as rocking-horse pooh.) Bearing in mind that, if they're not good as getting the size right, I'll have return shipping costs, insurance and taxes to outlay.

I've been looking at Superior Saddle tree company with their ultra-hide covering (we're moving to Scotland which is wetter than my curent location) and the anti-damp/wet protection ultrahide appears to give makes it look like the front runner. Also, my contacts with Superior have been good and they've been very helpful; a couple of other companies haven't event bothered to reply to me.

And one other question - though I've ridden McClellans and some McClellan variants - if there are any McClellan afficionados reading this - how good are they as an all-round, doing-nothing-special-in-particular-just-riding, saddle for everyday use?

Good job this is in the 'Off Topic' thread as I've wandered a bit. Okay, a lot.

Gary

Hi Gary

I really don't recommend the ultra hide. And in my opinion Superior doesnt have the best track record for quality and fit.

I have no idea about your budget so you will have to decide what you want to spend. Bowden does a decent job and some people use Batie for their trees.Steele is another. I use a maker (Bill Bean) and Quality Saddle tree co.

and I am very happy and confident with them both.

If you need addresses or information I will be happy to help you as much as I can. If you will contact me off list I will be happy to send you a few links that you may find interesting.

(removed addy to prevent spam~Johanna)

Kind Regards

Blake

[Johanna]

I'm going to move this to the Saddlery section. Maybe this topic just isn't getting noticed in "off-topic". Please share your links with all of us! There are no rules here about having to take subjects off-list, unless they concern private matters between individuals. Blake, I edited out your email addy from your post because the spam bots will get it on the forum. Anyone can click your name and send you a PM or an email (if you have those options enabled) and the addresses can't be found by the web crawlers that way.

Johanna

[David Genadek]

Gary,

I’ll give you my opinion of the state of tree making in the US and I present it as an opinion as I know many of my fitting concepts are contrary to the current paradigm of the industry. However, my opinions are backed by biomechanical facts.

As a rule the paradigms that the tree makers are currently using have been shaped by traditions that have been passed along through families. In short many of them are working off patterns that were developed over a hundred years ago. Today in the United States there are over 110 breeds represented and there are more horses here than there ever has been. Although despite the numerous breeds and proliferation of rib cage shapes, the current paradigm of the industry is that saddle fit happens in the whither area and can be accommodated by just widening the gullet. This is where poor saddle fit makes it self-apparent but good saddle fit happens over the rib cage. This confusion has led to a fixation on the gullet of the saddle and gullet angle.

Although these elements have an effect they are currently distracting the industry from creating fit in the middle where the focus should be. This can only be achieved by thinking in terms of shape and not width.

Therefore, when you ask about who makes a quality tree you would need to first state what your definition of quality is. Saddle makers are generally taught that fit is the realm of the tree maker. Of course we are all one of the best saddle makers and we all have the best tree maker but if we would like to solidify our position in the industry and command a greater margins we should not believe our own publicity. If you are looking for quality of parts and the quality of the coverings each company has a place in the market. If your looking at proper fit each is equally dysfunctional. So the other questions you need to ask is what segment of the horse industry are you trying to target and what price point do you need to hit.

Ralide (I am a former employee of their parent company) of course is designed for the lowest end of the market. Originally these trees were developed by Dan Crates (when he owned Simco) in cooperation with Plastics Industries. There original purpose was to create a near disposable saddle for a grandfather to buy a grandchild so they could go ride a pony a few times. Their biggest flaw is not the material they are made of but the fact that on many models the seat is lower than the bars, which sets the rider directly on the spine.

Steele saddletree is next in the price progression. There are two Steele’s the son Eddy and the father, who don’t get along very well. Eddy runs Steele Saddle Tree Company, which is the largest manufacturer of western trees in the world. It used to be that most of their trees were fiber glassed today he is doing a molded flex tree which is killing horses.

Eddy is the most skilled pattern maker in the industry however he focuses his efforts on the large companies. His father makes custom trees. There was another brother involved but he and Eddy didn’t see eye to eye so Eddy quit and went to work for a foundry then his brother burned the factory down and Eddy came back and gained control again and rebuilt the factory.

The next level is where you will find cheaper rawhide covered trees and the coated trees. The main players on this level are Bowden (The part of the company that is run by

Arlen, his dad, Francis does higher end custom trees.) and Hadlock and Fox. I have never used Hadlock and fox but I have used Bowden. Arlen made to many mistakes and cost me $80,000.00 one year so I got pissed off and started my own tree company. I did find Francis Bowden to have a good grasp of things but he has resigned himself to doing what the saddle makers request and my impression was that he is bit bitter about it all. Funny we tell our customers we have the best tree maker in the world and the tree maker says he does what the saddle maker tells him to do. In the end we all need to get a data base of back shapes and create a standards right now that doesn’t exist at any level so our whole industry isn’t much more than a big marketing con game.

The third level is all the smaller tree makers which seem to be getting pretty numerous but if they are good or not will depend on your needs.

There are limits imposed on the tree makers due to the nature of the duplicating equipment they use. Today’s technology should be changing that. I use a five-axis router to cut my parts, which we have developed using digitized backs. In reality bars need a double twist and the bottom of the bar should be concave. Traditional methods of tree production inhibit this from happening. However it is cheaper for me to buy trees from other makers. So from my perspective the trees being produced are not cutting it the real world unless your clients have a particular build of horse. If your building for running QH you may have pretty good luck with standard trees. So you pretty much pick who you get along the best with and con your way around the problems with the customers. Fortunately most of them don’t have a clue so if you buy them a drink and make them feel good they will tell everyone to buy for you.

David Genadek

[BruceGibson]

Saddlemaker here, too. And, California born--I'm from Lompoc. So now we have two "Bruce's" with a California connection.

[BruceGibson]

Gary,

I’ll give you my opinion of the state of tree making in the US and I present it as an opinion as I know many of my fitting concepts are contrary to the current paradigm of the industry. However, my opinions are backed by biomechanical facts.

As a rule the paradigms that the tree makers are currently using have been shaped by traditions that have been passed along through families. In short many of them are working off patterns that were developed over a hundred years ago. Today in the United States there are over 110 breeds represented and there are more horses here than there ever has been. Although despite the numerous breeds and proliferation of rib cage shapes, the current paradigm of the industry is that saddle fit happens in the whither area and can be accommodated by just widening the gullet. This is where poor saddle fit makes it self-apparent but good saddle fit happens over the rib cage. This confusion has led to a fixation on the gullet of the saddle and gullet angle.

Although these elements have an effect they are currently distracting the industry from creating fit in the middle where the focus should be. This can only be achieved by thinking in terms of shape and not width.

Therefore, when you ask about who makes a quality tree you would need to first state what your definition of quality is. Saddle makers are generally taught that fit is the realm of the tree maker. Of course we are all one of the best saddle makers and we all have the best tree maker but if we would like to solidify our position in the industry and command a greater margins we should not believe our own publicity. If you are looking for quality of parts and the quality of the coverings each company has a place in the market. If your looking at proper fit each is equally dysfunctional. So the other questions you need to ask is what segment of the horse industry are you trying to target and what price point do you need to hit.

Ralide (I am a former employee of their parent company) of course is designed for the lowest end of the market. Originally these trees were developed by Dan Crates (when he owned Simco) in cooperation with Plastics Industries. There original purpose was to create a near disposable saddle for a grandfather to buy a grandchild so they could go ride a pony a few times. Their biggest flaw is not the material they are made of but the fact that on many models the seat is lower than the bars, which sets the rider directly on the spine.

Steele saddletree is next in the price progression. There are two Steele’s the son Eddy and the father, who don’t get along very well. Eddy runs Steele Saddle Tree Company, which is the largest manufacturer of western trees in the world. It used to be that most of their trees were fiber glassed today he is doing a molded flex tree which is killing horses.

Eddy is the most skilled pattern maker in the industry however he focuses his efforts on the large companies. His father makes custom trees. There was another brother involved but he and Eddy didn’t see eye to eye so Eddy quit and went to work for a foundry then his brother burned the factory down and Eddy came back and gained control again and rebuilt the factory.

The next level is where you will find cheaper rawhide covered trees and the coated trees. The main players on this level are Bowden (The part of the company that is run by

Arlen, his dad, Francis does higher end custom trees.) and Hadlock and Fox. I have never used Hadlock and fox but I have used Bowden. Arlen made to many mistakes and cost me $80,000.00 one year so I got pissed off and started my own tree company. I did find Francis Bowden to have a good grasp of things but he has resigned himself to doing what the saddle makers request and my impression was that he is bit bitter about it all. Funny we tell our customers we have the best tree maker in the world and the tree maker says he does what the saddle maker tells him to do. In the end we all need to get a data base of back shapes and create a standards right now that doesn’t exist at any level so our whole industry isn’t much more than a big marketing con game.

The third level is all the smaller tree makers which seem to be getting pretty numerous but if they are good or not will depend on your needs.

There are limits imposed on the tree makers due to the nature of the duplicating equipment they use. Today’s technology should be changing that. I use a five-axis router to cut my parts, which we have developed using digitized backs. In reality bars need a double twist and the bottom of the bar should be concave. Traditional methods of tree production inhibit this from happening. However it is cheaper for me to buy trees from other makers. So from my perspective the trees being produced are not cutting it the real world unless your clients have a particular build of horse. If your building for running QH you may have pretty good luck with standard trees. So you pretty much pick who you get along the best with and con your way around the problems with the customers. Fortunately most of them don’t have a clue so if you buy them a drink and make them feel good they will tell everyone to buy for you.

David Genadek

Very interesting post, David. I use Bowden (from Arlen) saddle trees and I've been pleased with everything I've gotten from them. My opinion on the whole "saddle fitting" deal is that it's not dissimilar to the whole "equine chiropractic" deal...it's a con-game. I'm fortunate to not only be a horse owner, but I also have access to sixty or more head a mile down the road from me that I have free rein to work with at any time. I can test gear...bridles, halters, saddles, etc. And I take advantage of that. I've never hurt a horse in any way with any saddle I've built from any tree I've gotten from Bowden. I do not, and will not, use any of the plastic poly crap that these "high-tech" companies put out. I use saddle trees built from wood and covered in rawhide. They work, have always worked, and unless equine physiology takes on a drastic overnight change, I see no reason why they won't continue to work. And work well.

I would strongly advise anyone that is tempted to buy-in to the saddle-fitting, equine chiropractics, equine dentistry cons to do some research before taking the leap. Just take a step back and look at reality.

[BruceGibson]

Welcome, Ronny! Your post came across just fine. Why the heck did you leave Idaho for Oklahoma?

[BruceGibson]

And, welcome Gary from the UK. Hope you don't feel you've fallen into a "tree-fitting" battle. It's great to have you here!!

[Ronny]

Thanks for the welcome! We like Oklahoma, home of the best weather in the world, and the worst weather in the world! We lived in the two extremes of the USA, extreme heat in Ariz and extreme cold in sw Idaho.

When our kids were home we did a lot of winter things,sking, sledding(machines),hunting and fishing,ect. but they grew up and my wife and I were feeding 23 head of horses and foaling mares in 15-20 below zero weather. The fun was gone. Oklahoma is OKAY! Later, Ronny

[gary]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the replies I've had on the saddle tree question.

I'll work through them and keep you updated.

And Happy Easter to everyone.

Gary

[Blake]

Wow! I thought we would get more replies.

Hi Ronny. Welcome to the group. We will look forward to your posts. Who did you work with while you were in Arizona?

Hey Bruce. I thought Bandera Texas was the Cowboy Capital? at least they said it was?

Is anyone planning to be in Texas for the Boot and Saddle Makers Roundup this fall? I was kind of thinking that if enough people on the list responded and some were going then we might plan to get together for a sassparilla during the show.

Blake

[Galadriel]

I've never hurt a horse in any way with any saddle I've built

When I see someone say something like this, here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) You've been really damn lucky. You've worked with horses who happen to fit reasonably well into the saddles you've made--in some cases, not unreasonable.

2) You haven't tested enough.

Or,

3) You don't really know how to check for soreness in a horse.

I have seen horses hurt really, really badly by poorly fitting saddles, both Western and English. The one hurt the worst was one who *screamed* at me when I touched his back; he'd been ridden for pleasure in a Western saddle only.

I've seen some really nice saddles with lovely trees which just did NOT fit on the horses who were supposed to be wearing them. I'm looking at horses ridden for pleasure or performance, often in fields some ways from where their breeding lies (ie, the downhill-built Paint that they're trying to train in eventing, or the Standardbred that they're riding on the trail, and so on). People love their horses and just want to ride them and enjoy them, and in the main they just don't have a CLUE what the inside of their saddle looks like. They don't know how to check for fit. Getting something approximately right improves these horses' lives a hundredfold.

I've also seen dramatic, immediate differences when we put something that does fit onto a horse. That's not something that could be faked with a con game. Horses who "take 20 or 30 minutes to work into the bridle" and are stiff until then, suddenly are soft and responsive as soon as you mount up. Horses who wouldn't stay in the trot suddenly trot with ease. Horses who wouldn't stride out or have a choppy stride suddenly have a long beautiful stride. This is easing pain in the horse, not some kind of mind game that I play on the riders. Sometimes a small change makes all the difference; sometimes the saddle needs to be changed completely.

It makes me sick to see a horse who's been (or is being) ridden in a badly fitting saddle. It's worse when someone who *makes* saddles doesn't seem to understand why saddles need to fit.

[Galadriel]

I have been watching a discussion on another list about saddle trees, it is very sad. How ignorant our profession must seem to serouse horseman.

Was that mine? Did you have something else that you thought ought to be said? Seeing that you seem to read the posts, I was hoping that you would say something at least...even if it was just "don't bother." (I was really hoping for a response from Blake, too.)

~ ~ ~

Your idea of a database of back shapes is fascinating.

[Little John]

Have not made many but I do make them. Would love a full time job of it.

lj

[bruce johnson]

As Blake said, welcome to all who are here.

Little John, I didn't know you were over here, good to have you.

Gary, I must concur with Blake. I shop tree makers every so often. Last year I ordered one of my common trees from 3 makers at the same time - the Superior was not in the top two. Some of the synthetic coatings bear promise, although they are not there yet for my type of customer. My saddles get roped out of a bunch, have horses bang them around, and are abused. The rawhide has a naturally elasticity that will deform and return to shape within limits. Some of the synthetic coatings are stiff and brittle. I have a warranty replacement tree brought to me by a customer. This customer single-steer ropes and had broken 2 of their trees. The warranty tree was triple dipped epoxy. The tree maker proudly told me that these trees will take 5000# of pressure without deforming. I am not sure if that is a good thing or not. It was not shaped well, and the customer opted for another maker's trees. I have had it sitting around and use it to stretch stirrup leathers on. There are some fracture lines in the epoxy where it has been knocked around a little. Whether these would happen in use, I don't know. Other coatings are softer and flexible. Whether they would hold the tree together with the force of something hitting the end of a rope repeatedly or a horse falling with it, I don't know.

Blake, regarding our claim for the "Cowboy Capital of the World". We historically get our rains in the winter and spring. Ranching goes back to pre Gold Rush era. Cattle grazed in the valley and foothills in the winter, and then mountain pastures, irrigated clover, or dry feed through the summer. We predominantly fall calve, so the branding and processing is winter and spring. Our rodeos tend to be spring rodeos, and back in the day, were the first of the season. Itinerant rodeo cowboys could day-work on ranches all week, and rodeo on the weekends through the spring and early summer. Many have stayed in this area, and we are now a few generations deep in rodeo history as well. Arenas as well as basketball hoops in the backyards here. I believe we have the only highschool where rodeo is a letter sport, and we usually send a few kids to the National High School finals every year. At one time 28-30 rodeo world championships were credited to Oakdale residents. In my joking with a friend from the other capital, Bandera, we have had The Oakdale Testical Festival for now our 26th year. It is a community calf fry , usually a sell out, and 450 plus attendees this year. When Bandera can match that, we will share the title.

Bruce G, send me a private email sometime. I like the Santa Ynez area, and had a really good friend from Lompoc. He rode barebacks at the NFR a few years.

Looking forward to some great sharing from this bunch.

Bruce Johnson

[Blake]

As Blake said, welcome to all who are here.

Little John, I didn't know you were over here, good to have you.

Gary, I must concur with Blake. I shop tree makers every so often. Last year I ordered one of my common trees from 3 makers at the same time - the Superior was not in the top two. Some of the synthetic coatings bear promise, although they are not there yet for my type of customer. My saddles get roped out of a bunch, have horses bang them around, and are abused. The rawhide has a naturally elasticity that will deform and return to shape within limits. Some of the synthetic coatings are stiff and brittle. I have a warranty replacement tree brought to me by a customer. This customer single-steer ropes and had broken 2 of their trees. The warranty tree was triple dipped epoxy. The tree maker proudly told me that these trees will take 5000# of pressure without deforming. I am not sure if that is a good thing or not. It was not shaped well, and the customer opted for another maker's trees. I have had it sitting around and use it to stretch stirrup leathers on. There are some fracture lines in the epoxy where it has been knocked around a little. Whether these would happen in use, I don't know. Other coatings are softer and flexible. Whether they would hold the tree together with the force of something hitting the end of a rope repeatedly or a horse falling with it, I don't know.

Blake, regarding our claim for the "Cowboy Capital of the World".

Bruce Johnson

Hi Bruce

Thanks for that good information about the cowboy capital. I will file that in things I NOW know for when the subject comes up again.

Regarding the epoxy trees. Because they are so rigid they fail at the areas where the traditional tree will flex and forgive. I have one in the shop that I removed from a saddle and you can see stress cracks at all of those points and It failed at the stirrup grooves so I have to agree with your observations .

I guess I'm old school but I just don't see anything out there at the present time that will be able to replace a well made hide covered tree.

Welcome Little John, Glad you are here.

Blake

[David Genadek]

I would just like to let you all know that I have nothing against Bowden trees and I think Arlen does a good job on the trees and very good for the price point. I also think he is a really good person. My biggest gripe was his crew didn't seem to be able to properly mark things and it cost me a ton of money. However I was asking for things that were out of his norm. My point is that there are many niche markets and in the industry and before you pick a tree maker to work with you first need to understand your own market and what your own goals are then it is a process of trial and error until you find a good match. For me after years of extensive research I felt there needed to be some major changes in tree design so I first tried to get existing tree makers to make those changes for me. After many years of frustration I decided I needed to do it myself and did. Now I have the consistency and variation of shapes to allow me to do the job in such way that I no longer feel like a con man.

I will agree that for many that say they are experts in saddle fit are just pulling a big con and they do not have the background or experience to do the job. This is equally true in all professions. As far as Equine chiropractic goes you can spot the cons when they tell you that they need to keep coming and ignore the soft tissue element of the equation. Equine dentistry is also full of poorly trained people making a fast buck at the expense of the horse. This however does not negate the extreme importance of Equine dental any more than bad ferriers negate the need for proper hoof care. I agree every one should make an effort to get educated enough to know the difference between people who really do know enough to help and those that are just cons.

As far an epoxy covered trees go I can certainly understand the opinions expressed but I must say I believe they are more a reflection of poor technique in the use of the materials than they are an accurate reflection of the materials. The person I use to create my 3d shapes, designs yachts for a living. Last time he was here he saw a couple of epoxy and fiber glassed trees that I had here and he did not believe how poorly they were done. Lets face it if the epoxy's were as stiff as you have been led to believe

We would have planes falling out of the sky at unbelievable rates and boats sinking faster than they could build them. I just spent a day in Seattle at a major boat supply house learning about Epoxy's and lamination techniques and I believe at this point when properly done these materials can be used to create a tree of equal strength to rawhide. Frank, the 3d designer, built a catamaran ten years ago that has survived two hurricanes it would have been snapped in half if epoxy's were stiff and brittle. If epoxy’s and laminations are used right that simply is not true. I rawhide all my trees though.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

Was that mine? Did you have something else that you thought ought to be said? Seeing that you seem to read the posts, I was hoping that you would say something at least...even if it was just "don't bother." (I was really hoping for a response from Blake, too.)

~ ~ ~

Your idea of a database of back shapes is fascinating.

Yes it was yours and I thought your efforts were commendable but was saddend by the response you have gotten. I checked out your site and think you are making good realizations and your background in physics is much needed in this profession. You will not find what you are looking for as you can see the industry has not evolved to the point where they can even see the reality yet.

I can make the trees you are looking for but I would only help you if you could submit a plan for the saddle you plan to build. If you would be willing to let me aid you in the design and help you learn how to execute it properly with a functional tree then I would be willing to help. I have furnished saddles to several handicapped riding programs so I am very familier with the problems you are facing.

There was a great deal more that needed to be said but you will find things that need to be said don't find there way to the list if they don't agree with president of the guilds view of things.

David Genadek