how many in the group are saddle makers?

[Little John]

Have not made many but I do make them. Would love a full time job of it.

lj

[bruce johnson]

As Blake said, welcome to all who are here.

Little John, I didn't know you were over here, good to have you.

Gary, I must concur with Blake. I shop tree makers every so often. Last year I ordered one of my common trees from 3 makers at the same time - the Superior was not in the top two. Some of the synthetic coatings bear promise, although they are not there yet for my type of customer. My saddles get roped out of a bunch, have horses bang them around, and are abused. The rawhide has a naturally elasticity that will deform and return to shape within limits. Some of the synthetic coatings are stiff and brittle. I have a warranty replacement tree brought to me by a customer. This customer single-steer ropes and had broken 2 of their trees. The warranty tree was triple dipped epoxy. The tree maker proudly told me that these trees will take 5000# of pressure without deforming. I am not sure if that is a good thing or not. It was not shaped well, and the customer opted for another maker's trees. I have had it sitting around and use it to stretch stirrup leathers on. There are some fracture lines in the epoxy where it has been knocked around a little. Whether these would happen in use, I don't know. Other coatings are softer and flexible. Whether they would hold the tree together with the force of something hitting the end of a rope repeatedly or a horse falling with it, I don't know.

Blake, regarding our claim for the "Cowboy Capital of the World". We historically get our rains in the winter and spring. Ranching goes back to pre Gold Rush era. Cattle grazed in the valley and foothills in the winter, and then mountain pastures, irrigated clover, or dry feed through the summer. We predominantly fall calve, so the branding and processing is winter and spring. Our rodeos tend to be spring rodeos, and back in the day, were the first of the season. Itinerant rodeo cowboys could day-work on ranches all week, and rodeo on the weekends through the spring and early summer. Many have stayed in this area, and we are now a few generations deep in rodeo history as well. Arenas as well as basketball hoops in the backyards here. I believe we have the only highschool where rodeo is a letter sport, and we usually send a few kids to the National High School finals every year. At one time 28-30 rodeo world championships were credited to Oakdale residents. In my joking with a friend from the other capital, Bandera, we have had The Oakdale Testical Festival for now our 26th year. It is a community calf fry , usually a sell out, and 450 plus attendees this year. When Bandera can match that, we will share the title.

Bruce G, send me a private email sometime. I like the Santa Ynez area, and had a really good friend from Lompoc. He rode barebacks at the NFR a few years.

Looking forward to some great sharing from this bunch.

Bruce Johnson

[Blake]

As Blake said, welcome to all who are here.

Little John, I didn't know you were over here, good to have you.

Gary, I must concur with Blake. I shop tree makers every so often. Last year I ordered one of my common trees from 3 makers at the same time - the Superior was not in the top two. Some of the synthetic coatings bear promise, although they are not there yet for my type of customer. My saddles get roped out of a bunch, have horses bang them around, and are abused. The rawhide has a naturally elasticity that will deform and return to shape within limits. Some of the synthetic coatings are stiff and brittle. I have a warranty replacement tree brought to me by a customer. This customer single-steer ropes and had broken 2 of their trees. The warranty tree was triple dipped epoxy. The tree maker proudly told me that these trees will take 5000# of pressure without deforming. I am not sure if that is a good thing or not. It was not shaped well, and the customer opted for another maker's trees. I have had it sitting around and use it to stretch stirrup leathers on. There are some fracture lines in the epoxy where it has been knocked around a little. Whether these would happen in use, I don't know. Other coatings are softer and flexible. Whether they would hold the tree together with the force of something hitting the end of a rope repeatedly or a horse falling with it, I don't know.

Blake, regarding our claim for the "Cowboy Capital of the World".

Bruce Johnson

Hi Bruce

Thanks for that good information about the cowboy capital. I will file that in things I NOW know for when the subject comes up again.

Regarding the epoxy trees. Because they are so rigid they fail at the areas where the traditional tree will flex and forgive. I have one in the shop that I removed from a saddle and you can see stress cracks at all of those points and It failed at the stirrup grooves so I have to agree with your observations .

I guess I'm old school but I just don't see anything out there at the present time that will be able to replace a well made hide covered tree.

Welcome Little John, Glad you are here.

Blake

[David Genadek]

I would just like to let you all know that I have nothing against Bowden trees and I think Arlen does a good job on the trees and very good for the price point. I also think he is a really good person. My biggest gripe was his crew didn't seem to be able to properly mark things and it cost me a ton of money. However I was asking for things that were out of his norm. My point is that there are many niche markets and in the industry and before you pick a tree maker to work with you first need to understand your own market and what your own goals are then it is a process of trial and error until you find a good match. For me after years of extensive research I felt there needed to be some major changes in tree design so I first tried to get existing tree makers to make those changes for me. After many years of frustration I decided I needed to do it myself and did. Now I have the consistency and variation of shapes to allow me to do the job in such way that I no longer feel like a con man.

I will agree that for many that say they are experts in saddle fit are just pulling a big con and they do not have the background or experience to do the job. This is equally true in all professions. As far as Equine chiropractic goes you can spot the cons when they tell you that they need to keep coming and ignore the soft tissue element of the equation. Equine dentistry is also full of poorly trained people making a fast buck at the expense of the horse. This however does not negate the extreme importance of Equine dental any more than bad ferriers negate the need for proper hoof care. I agree every one should make an effort to get educated enough to know the difference between people who really do know enough to help and those that are just cons.

As far an epoxy covered trees go I can certainly understand the opinions expressed but I must say I believe they are more a reflection of poor technique in the use of the materials than they are an accurate reflection of the materials. The person I use to create my 3d shapes, designs yachts for a living. Last time he was here he saw a couple of epoxy and fiber glassed trees that I had here and he did not believe how poorly they were done. Lets face it if the epoxy's were as stiff as you have been led to believe

We would have planes falling out of the sky at unbelievable rates and boats sinking faster than they could build them. I just spent a day in Seattle at a major boat supply house learning about Epoxy's and lamination techniques and I believe at this point when properly done these materials can be used to create a tree of equal strength to rawhide. Frank, the 3d designer, built a catamaran ten years ago that has survived two hurricanes it would have been snapped in half if epoxy's were stiff and brittle. If epoxy’s and laminations are used right that simply is not true. I rawhide all my trees though.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

Was that mine? Did you have something else that you thought ought to be said? Seeing that you seem to read the posts, I was hoping that you would say something at least...even if it was just "don't bother." (I was really hoping for a response from Blake, too.)

~ ~ ~

Your idea of a database of back shapes is fascinating.

Yes it was yours and I thought your efforts were commendable but was saddend by the response you have gotten. I checked out your site and think you are making good realizations and your background in physics is much needed in this profession. You will not find what you are looking for as you can see the industry has not evolved to the point where they can even see the reality yet.

I can make the trees you are looking for but I would only help you if you could submit a plan for the saddle you plan to build. If you would be willing to let me aid you in the design and help you learn how to execute it properly with a functional tree then I would be willing to help. I have furnished saddles to several handicapped riding programs so I am very familier with the problems you are facing.

There was a great deal more that needed to be said but you will find things that need to be said don't find there way to the list if they don't agree with president of the guilds view of things.

David Genadek

[gary]

Thanks everyone.

Because of your informed and helpful replies, I'm changing my ideas drastically.

Verlane has also given me some excellent advice and help.

Thanks again

Gary

[$$hobby]

I would love to learn to make saddles.

But i do alot of tack repair/mods for people. mostly halters, bridles, reins and whatever comes in the tack shop.

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

I am new to the site and I am a saddle maker. I have worked 7 years on my own and 3 as an apprentice. I would say to anyone thinking its going to be a great easy life to not try it. It takes lots of hard work and you make little money to start, until you get a reputation then it gets easier. You have to love what you do or I dont think youll last long, there are better jobs out there that you can make more money.

[David Genadek]

You can make a living if you dig in and get good. By a living I mean you should be able to net between 40 and 50 thousand a year if your good and you price your products right. That isn't a six figure income but it puts you in the same ball park as a school teacher. If you combine your operation with retail you can do much much better.

I was just at a horse expo and ran into a few other saddle makers and everyone was whining a bit about the dollars. Right now there is more opportunity in this industry than there ever has been. We have more horses in the US than any time in history. The manufactureing side of things is facing ageing leadership with no trained middle management to take up the slack which means the quaility of the production side of things will be falling off further over the next ten years. Right now there doesn't seem to be enough capacity to meet demand and the guys that are getting the business are haveing trouble finding help so that is really limiting their growth but the demand seems to be strong. As a group we need to charge an appropraite amount for our work now is a really good time to push that limit.

David Genadek

[johnnyreb]

Hello all I just joined this group and came across the saddlemarker discussion. I have made McCellan saddles, but with only six pieces of leather for the 1859 model it's a simple build. As a civil war reenactor with 12 years exp. I have made my own halters, bridles, and saddlebags. But I also do not consider myself a saddlemarker, although a buddy in the unit calls me the company saddler.