would like pattern design assistance

[ClayB]

Earlier this week I tried to do a quick carving project. I have never been very good at drawing patterns, so what I usually do it try and find parts of other patterns that fit in the space I need to fill. When I finished carving this, I was fairly happy with how it looked. But, the more I looked at it, the more it looks like I just tried to fill in space (which is what I did) So I am wondering if any of you out there that actually CAN draw patterns could give me some pointers. What I see here is 3 seperate elements and a set of intitials. I would like it to be one continous pattern without breaks in between. My first idea to try and fix this pattern was to try and join the 3 seperate pieces with a vine in sort of an "S" shape to connect the pieces which I think will help, but not sure if it is the real solution. I would appreciate any ideas.

Clay

[Clay]

Earlier this week I tried to do a quick carving project. I have never been very good at drawing patterns, so what I usually do it try and find parts of other patterns that fit in the space I need to fill. When I finished carving this, I was fairly happy with how it looked. But, the more I looked at it, the more it looks like I just tried to fill in space (which is what I did) So I am wondering if any of you out there that actually CAN draw patterns could give me some pointers. What I see here is 3 seperate elements and a set of intitials. I would like it to be one continous pattern without breaks in between. My first idea to try and fix this pattern was to try and join the 3 seperate pieces with a vine in sort of an "S" shape to connect the pieces which I think will help, but not sure if it is the real solution. I would appreciate any ideas.

Clay

Clay,

The thing that stands out the most to me is that you have elements in your pattern that are working against each other. I feel that leaves and flowers that are "growing" from the same source should point in the same general direction as the flow. The other thing is the background. I was taught that the background should be minimal and equal to the rest of the piece. What I mean by this is that on the top of your piece you have several leaves and on the bottom you do not have as many, so there is an empty space under the S that could have a leaf in it. The carving itself is great, the leaves are done well and the flowers are too. You mentioned adding vines to the pattern and in my opinion they don't have to be there if you can get the flow right.

Clay M.

[Regis]

QUOTE: "I feel that leaves and flowers that are "growing" from the same source should point in the same general direction as the flow. "

Clay - May I jump in here with a question?

Clay M. Would you elaborate just a little more on flow? Should flow normally be toward or away from main object (focal point)? Or should flow normally be across a scene in one direction? Or, any of those as long as each item ties into an adjacent one??

When you mentioned "flow" it just clicked as what is wrong when I look at my carvings. I am at a point where I can carve 'recognizable' objects but, creating a scene is a different story (unless it's basic hills with trees & grass around an animal). How do you look at the orientation of the flow in a carving like ClayB has shown?

Thanks,

Regis

[Clay]

QUOTE: "I feel that leaves and flowers that are "growing" from the same source should point in the same general direction as the flow. "

Clay - May I jump in here with a question?

Clay M. Would you elaborate just a little more on flow? Should flow normally be toward or away from main object (focal point)? Or should flow normally be across a scene in one direction? Or, any of those as long as each item ties into an adjacent one??

When you mentioned "flow" it just clicked as what is wrong when I look at my carvings. I am at a point where I can carve 'recognizable' objects but, creating a scene is a different story (unless it's basic hills with trees & grass around an animal). How do you look at the orientation of the flow in a carving like ClayB has shown?

Thanks,

Regis

Regis,

The queststion is a good one and I will do my best to answer it. I am not sure that I have the best answer..

The flow of a floral pattern will vary between styles, makers and tools used. In Sheridan style the flow is going in the same motion but not the same direction, or in other words the flow is not necessarily left to right. In bigger patterns you will see vines and such that do point to each other but they are growing from the same point of convergence. Clay B. mentioned S curves, these are huge part of the flow of Sheridan style patterns. Take a look at a typicall sheridan patern, if you put your finger on the vines and folow them across the pattern you will see that it will go in S curves that go in different directions but it is still flowing in the same "growth" as it goes across the piece. As for the focal point, the flowers are the first componet of the pattern. That is what you want to see first when you look at a piece. The vines and stems and leaves are secondary. They should not become more prominent than the flower. On Clay B's pattern the flow starts at the top left corner and curves around the flower to the right. It continues under the middle flower at a diagonal towards the left lower corner and back around the botom flower to the right again. So by recognizing this flow it becomes easier to see that some of his leaves should be turned around.

I hope that is is helpful and that I have made sense.

Clay M.

[Johanna]

What are the odds of having two impressive leatherworkers named "Clay" on a forum?

Clay M.

You explained the Sheridan "flow" very well. I remember Little Jon running his finger along the scrolls and swirls of a new pattern, and he was checking, like you described, the direction everything needed to go. The "flow" is really easy to see on woodwork designs that use the Greek and Roman acanthus designs, too. Clay, do you have a rule of thumb about backgrounding in proportion to the design? I remember being told it should be minimal, but I couldn't tell you why.

Clay B.

I really like the initials.

Johanna

[Regis]

Regis,

The queststion is a good one and I will do my best to answer it. I am not sure that I have the best answer..

The flow of a floral pattern will vary between styles, makers and tools used. In Sheridan style the flow is going in the same motion but not the same direction, or in other words the flow is not necessarily left to right. In bigger patterns you will see vines and such that do point to each other but they are growing from the same point of convergence. Clay B. mentioned S curves, these are huge part of the flow of Sheridan style patterns. Take a look at a typicall sheridan patern, if you put your finger on the vines and folow them across the pattern you will see that it will go in S curves that go in different directions but it is still flowing in the same "growth" as it goes across the piece. As for the focal point, the flowers are the first componet of the pattern. That is what you want to see first when you look at a piece. The vines and stems and leaves are secondary. They should not become more prominent than the flower. On Clay B's pattern the flow starts at the top left corner and curves around the flower to the right. It continues under the middle flower at a diagonal towards the left lower corner and back around the botom flower to the right again. So by recognizing this flow it becomes easier to see that some of his leaves should be turned around.

I hope that is is helpful and that I have made sense.

Clay M.

Clay M. Yes, as I read your last couple sentences and look at Clay B's carving it is clear. I think I'll have to sketch a few patterns and try to make sure I understand weaving an S through the design with leaves trailing off.

Thank you very much for the lesson...... even though Clay B's carving itself is so perfect (one day one day,,,practice,,,practice)

Regis

Edited April 15, 2007 by Regis

[David Genadek]

Clay,

I think this is a really nice piece. The carving is stunning. Personally I don't think you should try to apply the rules of traditional connected stem floral carveing to this piece. What I think you are picking up on is not what is wrong with the flow but rather what is off with the proportions. This is the number one problem people have with drawing thier designs. There is a set of design rules that should be followed they are the same ones God uses and if you learn them it is pretty hard to make things look bad. A really good book on the subject is the Power of Limits by Gyorgy Doczi any one that designs anything should study this book.

Flow is important but when laying out a design you should think proportion first by laying out the stem first then adding the flowers. To do other wise would be like putting down all the punctuation in a story before you wrote the sentences. Here is a link that has some info on my teacher Bob Brown. In the pdf you will find an instruction booklet that has a few pages called pattern creation it is a great technique that can free you in ways that you couldn't imagine. I will be doing a class on how to draw using Bobs methods at the federation show.

David Genadek

[ClayB]

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I did some work on the pattern this afternoon (before I read the reply from David) and tried to get some flow into the design. Here is what I came up with. I'll wait to carve it this time to see if there are any more suggestions for changes.

Clay

[Johanna]

Hmmm...The initials should be more prominent than the floral. Right?

Johanna

[Clay]

Clay, do you have a rule of thumb about backgrounding in proportion to the design? I remember being told it should be minimal, but I couldn't tell you why.

Johanna

Johanna,

I don't have a rule to follow but when I asked this question to the saddle maker that I learned floral carving from he said that the background should be minimal because it takes up time and the shops paid the carvers by the piece instead of by the hour so they would design simple but elegant patterns to put on the saddles that would not take long to carve.

Clay M.