Singer 211G156 vs Seiko STW-8B (Consew 226R) for heavier thread.

[beefy]

I can't believe I've now got two medium/heavy walking foot sewing machines. Came across a good price on the Singer so just grabbed it.

Would anyone say one machine would be better suited than the other to thread heavier than V138.

I'm waiting for parts to convert the Seiko to a large U size hook (the one used in the Juki LU-563), but I also realise that Juki lists an optional U sized hook for "extremely heavy" thread.

So I'm toying with the idea of having one machine set up for V138 thread, and the other one for larger thread >>IF<< it would be OK to do that. Just don't know if one machine is better suited to the heavier thread than the other.

[Wizcrafts]

9 hours ago, beefy said:

Would anyone say one machine would be better suited than the other to thread heavier than V138.

I'm waiting for parts to convert the Seiko to a large U size hook (the one used in the Juki LU-563), but I also realise that Juki lists an optional U sized hook for "extremely heavy" thread.

So I'm toying with the idea of having one machine set up for V138 thread, and the other one for larger thread >>IF<< it would be OK to do that. Just don't know if one machine is better suited to the heavier thread than the other.

Neither of these machines was built to handle or tension #207/T210 bonded thread. Do so at your own risk. Sewing with #207 thread on the top and bottom calls for a #24 needle. You might need to find a heavy duty beehive tension spring to get enough top tension to pull the knots up into the leather. The bobbin tension would have to be very light, which can lead to other problems. Also, the hook will probably need to be moved farther away from the larger needle and the deflector tab may need to be bent out a little more (or not). Moving the hook sideways changes the timing.

If you do manage to get one of these machines to sew properly with #207 thread, which has a 33 pound breaking strength, be prepared to replace the take-up lever and the connecting rods and crank shafts inside the head. These parts will wear out much faster than if the thread maxed out at 22 pound test #138.

You might be able to soften the forces acting on the moving parts by reducing the bobbin tension to almost zero, while installing an anti-backlash spring under the bobbin, then balance the knots with the top tensioner. Last, set the check spring position for the maximum amount of slack in the top thread. On disk shaped check assemblies there is a screw inside a curved slot to control the slack. Loosen the little screw, rotate the assembly fully counterclockwise so the screw is at the right end of the slot, then tighten down the screw. Next, you may need to change both the check spring tension and bottom stopper position to hold onto the top thread as the take-up lever descends until the needle completely penetrates the bottom layer, and possibly longer. You'll need to get a substantial loop in the needle's scarf for the hook to pick it off at the distance it will have to be away from that thick needle. The hook timing may also need to be advanced to reduce the snapping as the top thread tries to go around the shuttle.

[kgg]

10 hours ago, beefy said:

>>IF<< it would be OK to do that. Just don't know if one machine is better suited to the heavier thread than the other.

My two cents worth in addition to @Wizcrafts comments:

Neither. They are upholstery class machines with a rated thread size max of V138 as a top and in the bobbin and typically a max sewing thickness of 3/8". That said depending on how thick you are planning on sewing sometimes you can use v207 in both the bobbin and as a top thread with thinner /softer leather more times you will be able to use v207 as a top thread and v138 in the bobbin. The drawback with using different thread sizes, top vs bobbin, is the strength of the seam will be only as good as the smallest thread size. As a note the brand name machines rated their machines on the thread size it could sew in the max thickness not what size of thread you could stuff through the eye of the needle.

All the machines you have listed are rated for a #24 needle which is good for V207 in thinner stuff and V138 in thicker.

Doing the conversion to the larger "U" size bobbin is not a simple pop-off and drop-in process which will in reality only get you more bobbin thread. The conversion is not going to get above V207 (limited by needle size) and depending on how thick / tough the leather is you still maybe limited to V138 as the top thread as well as in the bobbin.  Is it worth the effort?? I don't know.

If you need to sew V207 and above in thick or tough leather consistently these machines are the probably the wrong class of machine. You maybe able to trick the machine by increasing the torque using a speed reducer but chances are over the long haul you are going to damage the internals components of the machine.

The term you used "extremely heavy" for thread is a relative thing. Domestic sewers consider V69 to be heavy duty while upholstery class machine users consider V207 to be heavy duty while those using saddle/ holster capable machines consider V415 as heavy duty and then you get into threads that hand sewers use which would be above V415. 

What is the thickness of leather you want to sew?????

kgg

 

 

[beefy]

Thanks very much guys. Really appreciate the detailed responses.

I don't yet have a maximum thickness I expect to sew of anything. It's more a case of I've acquired an extra machine so just wondered if one could be set up for heavier work, rather than having 2 machines that can only do the same work. I'm really still at the beginning of this industrial sewing machine game. It started with my wanting to make a bimini and side covers for my boat but I'm finding I'm falling in love with these industrial machines, especially the walking foot ones, and I find I'm looking for extra things to make LOL. I think it's just a matter of time before I start playing with leather too.

Based on what you have explained to me it seems I'd be pushing the machine beyond it's design limitations. I may be better off getting one of the extra machines in a nice working condition with a servo, speed reducer, and needle positioner, and selling it at a profit and putting the money away for a more appropriate machine for leather.

I've been absolutely kicking myself for a while now. Seen a Singer 132K6 going for a steal not far from me, but shrugged my shoulders because it didn't have a reverse. Never realised the value of these machines at the time. Needless to say it went very quickly and 2 days later I see the same model machine advertised for A$1000 more. I bet it was that one. I wouldn't have sold it though.

Regarding the bobbin conversion I've read/viewed every resource I can on the conversion and understand what's involved. I don't expect this will increase the thread size capability, just want the extra bobbin size. The existing bobbin case seems to wobble a lot so I thought it might be worn out and instead of just doing a direct replacement I decided to jump in the deep end and do the modification. I'm a mechanical fitter and have a lathe and milling machine, as well as access to  a CNC mill, so I'm lucky enough in that regard.

Regarding the extra torque with a pulley reduction system I've retrofitted my machines with 4 pulley reduction systems and servos, and wow, the torque will smash things. Before I got my Seiko STW-8B I was using my basic lightweight Mitsubishi DB-189 with V138 thread (that's not a typo LOL) and got some needle deflection with the thick stuff I was sewing, and the needle hit the plate. Wow, what a solid crunch as the needle buckled and snapped, I was sure something must have broken or at least went out of adjustment. Nope, just continued sewing OK. That's when I started looking harder for a triple feed walking foot machine.

Edited 10 hours ago by beefy

[dikman]

My thoughts - if you got the machines at good prices then I'd keep both, set the Singer for #69 thread and the Seiko for #138. If you only want to keep one I'd keep the Seiko then look around for a heavier machine BUT finding a used heavy duty machine isn't going to be easy (unless you're very lucky).

[AlZilla]

Keep one, sell one and keep an eye out for some kind of a 441 clone. With that combo you can sew just about anything your heart desires. Though a case could be made that a post bed should be your next heavier machine instead of a cylinder arm. 

It's a rabbit hole and you jumped in. I'll see you when you get down here.  😃

[amuckart]

3 hours ago, beefy said:

I've been absolutely kicking myself for a while now. Seen a Singer 132K6 going for a steal not far from me, but shrugged my shoulders because it didn't have a reverse. Never realised the value of these machines at the time. Needless to say it went very quickly and 2 days later I see the same model machine advertised for A$1000 more. I bet it was that one. I wouldn't have sold it though.

If it’s any consolation, 132k6es aren’t all they’re cracked up to be, especially for leather.

they were good in their time, and there are still some jobs they excel at because of their durability but the feed mechanism is nowhere near as good as the compound feed on more modern machines.

I have a Seiko SK-8 I had high hopes for which I’m going to end up selling. It’s annoying because I want a machine that takes a needle in-between the 135x17 of the 111-derived machines and the 794 needles of the 441, 7 class etc.