Financial Rape and Plunder of the World

[Hennessy]

I'm old. I get to put my two cents in, whether or not you want to hear it...lol

There seems to be a lot of "Woe is me", and "They all suck" around here. There are some many billions of humans on this planet, and it can be pretty complicated to make things run on an even keel. Everyone has their druthers. You've got the Conspiracy people, the right and lefts, the center, and you can break that down into even more thousands of little tribes.

Tough times, and Good times, come and go. If you have some sort of belief you would be able to survive a Mel Gibson post apocalyptic world, forget it. We either work together, or we all hang together ( someone famous said that). Obstruction, doom and gloom, them vs us, has never, and will never accomplish anything but the destruction of those who purport it. It doesn't even make you feel better, you just end up wallowing it, and making everything look worse.

Personally, I can only do my little part. Making a belt that lasts a little longer than the time it takes to leave the store, or making any little accessory to put a smile on someone's face. Somehow, I think that adds a positive to the whole mix. When people add positives, instead of negatives, it just seems to make the world a little brighter, and better. It's not delusional...it really does work. Look at any snowstorm up North, and watch people who don't normally get along with each other, and how they help each other get through it.

Take this Forum, for another example. We are all learning, sharing, getting along for the most part. I have not seen this kind of positive relationships on ANY board out there. I hope that continues for many, many years.

Remember the old adage: "Never talk religion or politics in a bar".

"we either work together or we all hang together" said jesse james to the clantons just prior to the northfield minn raid. pete

[Rawhide]

I've resisted long enough...

No one seems to want to say it so I will. Let me preface this by saying that I'm just as nervous and worried about my kid and his kid(s) having to pay for mistakes that we and our parents made. However, no one is saying that this mess we're in is our own fault. No one accepts that we accepted the mortgages that we KNEW we couldn't pay for, we spent money like it was growing in the back yard. We didn't save one damn dime toward a hardship. I'm sorry for everyone that has lost a job. I feel remorse for those who can't pay the next house note, when they didn't bite more than they could handle, yet through the cutbacks at the local plant, they can no longer afford to pay. However, no one is more to blame than us. I don't care who's in charge, it's still our fault.

Stop blaming everyone else for things you can't control...Do what you can to survive, for you and your family. A wise man once told me "you can be on the same track, but you have to be pulling in the same direction". No matter that we got here by being careless...we are here now and we have to be responsible to ourselves and do what we can to fix this mess. I'm not a big fan of politics or government either, but to blame anyone but ourselves is lying to each other. Everyone that blames GW Bush for this is insane, everyone that blames B Obama is insane. Each person that takes that job does what he thinks is best to help right the country. I'd like to see anyone of you take that job and do any better...you can't. The arms of these problems reach much farther than you can imagine. Bottom line...stop bitching and do what you can to help...we're all in this together. To the talking heads: "If you don't like it, leave it...We'd love to have you, but we don't need you...."

[Jordan]

I appreciate all the responses, makes interesting reading and a lot of it is very insightful. I think it is good for people to express these things once in awhile. Gives a bit of clarity in a very muddled world, at least for me. I do agree with the point that everyone blames others for there woes' , human nature and societal conditioning maybe? I think this conversation is more philosophical than political at this point. It shows the diversity of thought but also a thread of commonality that runs through humanity. And hey I like frisbee golf.

[Rawhide]

...And hey I like frisbee golf.

[Jordan]

Just a little addition, I watched the pbs show last night Inside the financial meltdown or something like that. I was amazed at the number of things that lined up over time that when combined, started the ball rolling downhill, kind of like the perfect storm scenario. Add the amazing egos, greed and arrogance of the pro ported smartest financial players and it was inevitable. What I find sad though is the thousands upon thousands of people that thought they were playing by the rules and working hard, are losing so much. While it seems the perps are waddling away with the prize. The last time I frizbee golfed was at the park in pasadena by JPL many moons ago.

[flyingcuda]

good afternoon all...i love this place! all is not so good in canada either. i opened up a lingerie-adult-leather store in june..of course right before all this mess. i have 4 kids...22 -12-10-9...the oldest is out raising her own family. we have my in-laws living with us..with poor dad in-law having alzheimers. NOT easy! we are renting a store..paying 1400 a month..my hubby runs a computer repair and sales store in the other half of the store. we figured each side should be able to carry itself and provide sufficient income... ...boy were we wrong. perhaps in good times...yes..we just opened at the wrong time? i can't buy canadian because the cost is too high..why...because the workers feel they deserve 25 dollars an hour to run a high tech piece of equipment that they dont even have to touch unless they get thier own tie stuck in it. but yet we have other people working in more hazardous situations and being paid less. but as was said earlier...we put ourselves in these situations...for the most part...the bigger, newer house, the new car, the best of food and so on. what really bothers me is paying the high rate of insurance...here we have no choice..you drive you pay...all the money that is forked out by us month after month. we have been paying insurance for over 20 years an not a single accident or claim...(knocking real heavy on wood) what a waste of money! money i could be using to pay for stock for my store or field trips that my kids want to go on and so on. i really could go on and on. my husband and i decided to have 4 kids...my husband and i decided to have all 4 kids involved in sports..which is also very expensive my husband and i decided to take care of his parents...we decided to try to run our own business...sometimes good things come out of all these decisions..and sometimes bad....we just have to keep working at it and hoping that it will all be worth it in the end. we get to go to bed with the feeling of doing our best..wether it's working or not..we are doing our best, and not giving into the world that will always be there to knock you down. concentrate harder on the good that the world does have to offer..beautiful waters..incredible trees, aromatic flowers..a smile from a loved one..a nod from a stranger and so on. it also helps knowing that we are not fighting alone..there are others fighting the same or similar battles. take 5 mins out and truely enjoy the smell and the feel of a piece of leather in your hand....sorry..as i said..i could go on and on and apparently i did. look around..there is a lot to smile at.

flyingcuda

Edited February 19, 2009 by flyingcuda

[Go2Tex]

Yeah well..... as bad as things appear from watching cable news, and watching the stock market tank day after day, and watching our culture being torn apart one institution at a time, we're a long way from the End Times. Even at 10% unemployment, that means 90% are still employed. As long as you don't have to tap into your 401K right now, you haven't lost a dime on that. A down market means a buying opportunity. Raise some cash and buy some cheap stock and sit on it, brothers and sisters.

On the other hand..... if you don't have any cash, just lost your job, have no insurance, and live in California, or worse, in Canada..... damn, you're screwed dudes and dudetts. But fear not, ya'll. President Obama, (AKA: The Masiah), feels your pain and he's sending some assistance your way. Yep, got some pork in that spendulous bill to build some bike trails so you can pedal to your new Government job handing out spoons in the soup lines they're gonna have all across the new Socialist States of Amerika. He said so in his latest Fireside Chat, just like his mentor, FDR used to do back in the day.

Ah yes, the good ol' days of the Great Depression..... Arlo Guthrie, ridin' those trains and singin' his songs of the poor working man, starting unions, causing riots. The Big Brother government, handing out everything. Socialism and Communism on the rise. 'Cause, you know...when you got nothin', a little bit of somethin' looks pretty good.

So no, we're not heading for the End Times. We're just heading for full blown, unabashed, open and accepted Socialism. And for those of you who were victims of the American education system, Socialism is just the transition from Capitalism to Communism.....according to Karl Marx.

[Hilly]

Yeah well..... as bad as things appear from watching cable news, and watching the stock market tank day after day, and watching our culture being torn apart one institution at a time, we're a long way from the End Times. Even at 10% unemployment, that means 90% are still employed. As long as you don't have to tap into your 401K right now, you haven't lost a dime on that. A down market means a buying opportunity. Raise some cash and buy some cheap stock and sit on it, brothers and sisters.

On the other hand..... if you don't have any cash, just lost your job, have no insurance, and live in California, or worse, in Canada..... damn, you're screwed dudes and dudetts. But fear not, ya'll. President Obama, (AKA: The Masiah), feels your pain and he's sending some assistance your way. Yep, got some pork in that spendulous bill to build some bike trails so you can pedal to your new Government job handing out spoons in the soup lines they're gonna have all across the new Socialist States of Amerika. He said so in his latest Fireside Chat, just like his mentor, FDR used to do back in the day.

Ah yes, the good ol' days of the Great Depression..... Arlo Guthrie, ridin' those trains and singin' his songs of the poor working man, starting unions, causing riots. The Big Brother government, handing out everything. Socialism and Communism on the rise. 'Cause, you know...when you got nothin', a little bit of somethin' looks pretty good.

So no, we're not heading for the End Times. We're just heading for full blown, unabashed, open and accepted Socialism. And for those of you who were victims of the American education system, Socialism is just the transition from Capitalism to Communism.....according to Karl Marx.

Well said, Comrade, well said!

[esantoro]

Though James Goldsmith made his millions in buying companies and breaking them down in the 70's, in the 90's he seemed to have changed his rhetoric 180 degrees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdwmI9O4LEA

ed

I think it is very important in times like these, and then keep up the habit in the future, to try to connect all the dots in examining how power works in society. While it does take time, it ends up becoming like a game, like playing cards or tennis or chess or backgammon. Its payoff is sanity in knowing how the tectonic plates of economics, politics, and power are shifting, which allows one to hop to the other foot when needed in the smallest and most mundane of everyday decisions that must be made -- as the personal is political.

Though I am doubtful of the Internet's utility in the long run, there are still windows of opportunity for it to aid in shedding light on the fissures and cracks in the Matrix. All the dirt is right out there in plain sight; it just takes time to research and organize the information, and it is being done.

Grab a big bottle of hard liquor of your choice and connect the dots below. When you're finished, never look back and never watch mainstream news again. Keep track of the names of the folks who really do have their eye on the walnut shell with the pea underneath and always search for their take on the issues:

This ride requires a Double-E ticket and no seat belts will be provided:

-------------------------

The Rabbit Hole: "All hope abandon ye who enter here"

Your main conductor for this ride is the British journalist and agent provocateur Adam Curtis.

1. Click on this You Tube link to Adam Curtis' "The Century of the Self. There are four episodes (The Century of the Self), each about an hour long. Each episode is broken into about six 10-minute files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kp24ZeHtv4

2. Then go on to the next film: "The Trap"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXDMycMYsw...feature=related

This doc is also segmented into four parts, which are segmented into parts themselves.

3. If you can still stand the pain, take in Curtis' "The Mayfair Set"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yWY8IGczQE

If you're still on board, then there is no going back, so you might as well keep it up.

4. "Status Anxiety":

Now drive it all deeper into muscle memory:

5. Any number of Bill Moyers' interviews of the past two years, but this one will do fine: "Are we chumps?" "We might be."

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02132009/watch.html

6. Thomas Frank:

7. Rick Shenkman:

8. Interview with Adam Curtis:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/20/ad...rtis_interview/

9. For good measure, Dante's "Divine Comedy"

Through me you pass into the city of woe:

Through me you pass into eternal pain:

Through me among the people lost for aye.

Justice the founder of my fabric mov'd:

To rear me was the task of power divine,

Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.

Before me things create were none, save things

Eternal, and eternal I endure.

All hope abandon ye who enter here.

Such characters in colour dim I mark'd

Over a portal's lofty arch inscrib'd:

Whereat I thus: Master, these words import.

---------------------------------------

Now, if you're still conscious but writhing on a bile-puddled floor in pain without the will to go on, you are then in THEEEEEEE perfect place to read Henry Miller's "Tropic of Capricorn." It will lift you up and make you right and put you back together in a way you never thought possible, a Phoenix rising from the ashes.

Someone asked a while back why I've given the name "Maverick" to my bags. I had wanted to reply but was unable to encapsulate the exact reason why -- until now -- and I wanted to make sure that any explanation I gave be perfect.

Well, if you've taken in all these links, including Miller's "Capricorn," and you put together all the disgust, pain, laughter, sadness, despair, joy, hatred, love, lust, and desire that you encounter throughout the journey, shake it and stir, and then start punching your way back to sanity stitch by ing stitch, you have a "Maverick."

[Washroad]

Maybe someone from California can confirm or deny this... I recently heard that CA is in such bad shape that they've issued IOU's to pay some of their bills. Is this true, or is it some type of "The Sky Is Falling!" propaganda?

Not yet.

The legislature is still trying to get a budget passed. They need one more vote (Republican) to pass it. The CA senate is locked in and can't leave. If the budget doesn't pass, then yes, the IOUs will go out and that will start in a couple of days.

If the budget passes and Governor Schwarenegger Shriver signs it, then no IOUs but a major increase in taxes. I figure that my taxes will go up at least $2000 this year alone and that's not counting the sales tax increase.

I'm working for a small family owned company and been here 18 years so far. We knew this was coming and got ready for it. I haven't had a raise in 4 years now. My boss (company owner) took a 3 month no pay and a 10% cut. We haven't hired anyone in 3 years but we haven't laid off anyone either. We're going to survive this.

When my wife and I bough our house back in '99, we saved up for almost 5 years to buy it with a 10% down. We bought a beat-to-hell rental with an absentee landlord but we were so happy to get it and we do love the place and we can afford the payments. We also put a few bucks in the bank.

My profit sharing is going down. So is my wife's 401K. OK, well, we have a long time until retirement. We'll be alright.

Rawhide, yeppers! You're right. We did this to ourselves. I gotta say some people got into situations they shouldn't have but they did. Like buying a house with 3% down, adjustable mortgage, no credit check, and then they can't make the payment with the increase in interest. Duh. I know a guy that bought a house in Huntington Beach that way. He paid $500,000 for it. Managed to keep it 3 years. Didn't sell it, rather he "lost" it in foreclosure. I asked him how he could afford a house that had a $5,000 month payment. He said the first year it was only $2600! Then it went up. Now, I know where this guy works. We make about the same amount of money and I can't afford $2600 a month! WTH was he thinking? He was thinking he'd sell it in a few years and make a lot of money. Didn't happen. Lots of these around right now.

[Hennessy]

Just a little addition, I watched the pbs show last night Inside the financial meltdown or something like that. I was amazed at the number of things that lined up over time that when combined, started the ball rolling downhill, kind of like the perfect storm scenario. Add the amazing egos, greed and arrogance of the pro ported smartest financial players and it was inevitable. What I find sad though is the thousands upon thousands of people that thought they were playing by the rules and working hard, are losing so much. While it seems the perps are waddling away with the prize. The last time I frizbee golfed was at the park in pasadena by JPL many moons ago.

recently on a tv in depth depresser,they talk'd about a insurance policy available to anyone whereby one could cover his investment in a co goin belly up.they have a name for it and it was big way back untill 1900 there was even shops similar to a betting shop with boards showing co's instead of horses.sometime around the early years 1900 -1920 it was outlaw'd.well guess wot it was reintroduced 2000,one of those big dudes co went belly up and he got millions off an insurance co,talk aboot a conflict of interest,its still goin too, oh an jesse lied he left th clantons hangin pete

[Windy]

Ah yes, the good ol' days of the Great Depression..... Arlo Guthrie, ridin' those trains and singin' his songs of the poor working man, starting unions, causing riots.

I think you mean Woody Guthrie not Arlo.

WINDY

[Go2Tex]

Ah yes, the good ol' days of the Great Depression..... Arlo Guthrie, ridin' those trains and singin' his songs of the poor working man, starting unions, causing riots.

I think you mean Woody Guthrie not Arlo.

WINDY

Right. Woody. Of course. How stupid of me. Arlo was the dope smokin' long haired puke of my generation who never could live up to the reputation or ability of his family name.....

[Ian]

There is only ONE reason for this "stimulus" package, and that ONE reason is to increase the size of government. Period. The government could care less about any one of us posting here, or our financial situation.

Actually, there's TWO reasons. The other is to pay back all the unions, media, and organizations who helped get the president elected. Do we think that people give to politicians out of altruism?

I've always said - there is nothing that has happened in world history that won't happen again, and that includes revolution, world war, depression, famine, dictatorships, slavery.

American democracy is a very new concept. Did we think we could live in paradise forever regardless of who we put in power? Already the great democracy of Britain is caving to socialism and the wonderful Australian democracy is giving in to it as well.

I hear the drumbeat from every faction for civil unrest. It's only a matter of time.

[TexasJack]

"This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper"

'The Hollow men' by T.S. Eliot, not e.e. cummings

Thanks for the correction.

[TwinOaks]

Rant on:

Lots of interesting thoughts here. I agree a lot with Marlon, in that many people put themselves in bad situations. However, not everyone has, and the recession has lots of companies laying off workers. So what should they do? How about displace all the illegals by taking all the low paying jobs?

Here's a crazy idea: Quit outsourcing all the jobs to foreign countries! Not only do you keep the money at home, but anyone calling customer service would actually be able to understand what the H is being said. (Can you hear the ads? Buy our product: our service dept. speaks English)

I don't think that it's the end of the world just yet, but things are going to get uglier. As folks lose jobs, homes, etc., I'm expecting to see a corresponding rise in crime- petty at first, like a former banker shoplifting canned food, and getting progressivly worse with the economy. I'm fortunate enough to be in a good place to ride it out, too. In fact, looking at the course of events that led me and my family here, it's too much to be coincidental.....and to think I griped about all the little things when they popped up. Through several minor events, like almost getting killed in an industrial accident, and having a family member tell you they're selling the rental house you live in out from under you (in a month), we wound up here.

I'm on a private drive out in the county, with well water (can be hand pumped if needed), septic tank, lots of game, and a large lake full of fish nearby.

My neighbors include former military, mechanics, (another) electrician, farmers, carpenters, etc. This neighborhood has most of the basic trades covered. There's even a heavy equipment operator at the end of the main road with two dozers. I imagine parking them across the road would do a fair job of limiting trespassing. Oh, and everyone here knows how to hunt, farm, etc. We've got the makings of a nice little outpost.

So what?

My faith leads me to believe that God makes good on his deals- he said he would give us what we need ........not every little thing we think we want.

We as leatherworkers have a useful skill, and this forum has provided MANY of us with opportunities that we didn't know we had. Did anyone join this board with the FULL EXPECTATION to meet so many friends, learn so many things, and develop your skills? I joined because I thought that some leather items would be pretty cool to make as gifts. Now I've met people I call friends from at least 8 countries, have learned more about leather (among other things) in just over a year than I thought possible, and am seriously considering starting a business- yes, even in these times. I didn't get bitten by the leather bug because I wanted to....I think I needed to.

Has it occured (and I'm not thumping my Bible here) that the current crises are exactly what we need? Maybe this will move the country away from the 'gimme gimme gimme' ideology. Maybe, once folks figure out that roast chickens won't knock on their door anymore, they'll give up a lot of the vices that have turned this nation into a reincarnation of Sodom and Gomorrah. Apparently Katrina (bad ass huricane) wasn't enough of a clue.

Perhaps all the doom and gloom, naysayers and lunatics, politicians and false promises need to just implode. Take things back to a simpler way of life when honor meant something, a man's (woman's too) word was binding, and a handshake was better than any stack of papers a lawyer could produce.

At least two states have passed or are passing resolutions that essentially tell the Fed. where to get off. We may well be on track to a fracturing of the U.S.A. I hope it isn't the case, but I plan to be well prepared regardless. For anyone of a similar mind (TrooperChuck ) I recommend obtaining the Foxfire books, and listening to Bocephus' "Countryboy can survive". Finally, there's been some recent hoopla about repealing the 22nd amendment (term limits).....we don't need limits, we just need people to wake up and vote the bums out. Poor people have been voting for democrats for 50 years and they're still poor (how many times have I said that???) and a slap in the face may be needed to rouse them from their stupor.

Re: 12/21/12 or the end of the Mayan calender, i-ching, numeroloy, and any other "prophetic" means by which they get attention about the "end of days"....

(somebody help me out with the scripture citation, here) Weren't we told that "[no man knoweth the hour of my coming]", and ""?

I don't know about any of you, but if God says "Nobody (human) knows when I'm gonna pull the plug", I wonder how anyone on TV or Youtube can claim to?

Btw, I think the above date will most likely be a swapping of our poles -north becomes south.....kinda like the sun does every 11 or 12 years.

My fingers are cramping now, so I need to stop or I won't be able to tool a straight line....well, straight- ish line.

Y'all keep your knives sharp, your eyes and ears open, your powder dry, and never forget that God works in mysterious ways.

G'night.

Rant off:

Edited February 20, 2009 by TwinOaks

[wildrose]

TwinOaks was reading my mind...I'm with him!

[Ian]

Good stuff TwinOaks. We might not think we could survive catastrophy, because we've never been there, but we'll find out how strong we are when we have to. In a way I've had a taste of that all my life, so, as sick as it sounds, I'd like to find out how I would deal with the worst case senario.

Katrina was an example of people who have never developed a concept of self sufficiency - and that's where the real danger will come from when the government can no longer support it's non-contributing citizens.

To veer back into the spiritual/religious. The people who jumped out of wall street windows in the first depression were people who had made money their God and put all their faith in their portfolios. I can understand not having a reason to live once you've lost your God.

And an even more extreme thought: There would not have been a single surviving Jew in Europe if Hitler had had today's technology. Everyone in the Western world is on file today, and no matter how under-the-radar you try to live, your information is stored in hundreds of computers. It would just take the right set of circumstances to give the government reason to access it all. There is no place to hide anymore - just ask Randy Weaver.

And speaking of computers, I was watching a show about Chinese citizens who consider it their patriotic duty to learn how to shut down the world's internet systems. How about THAT for armegedon?

[TrooperChuck]

This has been a great thread, and I'm so glad the people who created this forum included a section for Off-Topic discussions.

There's been some great comments, ideas, and information here. From Johanna's anecdotal information about tough times in Small-town America. To Marlon's premise that the current situation is a result of our society's addiction to out of control spending and failure to save for hard times. To rdb's advice that we can, in small ways, help by doing positive things for others. These, and all the other postings, have been fascinating to read.

One of my favorite postings has been by TwinOaks... "Has it occured (and I'm not thumping my Bible here) that the current crises are exactly what we need? Maybe this will move the country away from the 'gimme gimme gimme' ideology... Take things back to a simpler way of life when honor meant something, a man's (woman's too) word was binding, and a handshake was better than any stack of papers a lawyer could produce."

It might just be wishful thinking, but I would love to live in that kind of society. Until that happens, I'm going to keep hoping for the best, preparing for the bad, and (as rdb suggested) try to help where I can.

[TwinOaks]

BTW, Chuck, thanks for your comments about guns and food buried in the backyard....I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.

[rhall]

As I have read this entire post I have been wondering how many Tens of thousands of folks who are standing back watching this parade of Clowns in Washington and feeling the same way we do.What the hell is carbon credits? and how does it help anyone except Al Gore?As God is my witness I am Scared to Death for our Country and My Grandchildren.I will Stand and Defend Her still today!

[TrooperChuck]

rhall:

I'm wondering the same things. Here's another example of government idiocy... Last year, here in WA state, they wanted to have meters installed on people's private wells so they could tax us for the water we take out of the ground. (Luckily, that didn't go anywhere, but there are still legislators who think it's a good idea.)

This year, our kind-hearted representatives in Olympia are introducing a bill to tax people who use studded tires in the winter time! Their idea is that studded tires cause more damage to the roads, so you will have to obtain a $100 permit in order to use studded tires! My question is this... if this law passes, some people will opt not to use studded tires in the winter because they can't afford the $100 permit, so how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) will be caused because people can't use the proper traction-tires?

I am sooooooo sick of these money hungry jerks contantly looking for ways to milk more and more money out of little guys to support their out-of-control government spending.

[Ian]

In Taxachusetts they're getting ready to raise the gas tax to the highest in the nation. The governor tells us that it will amount to one large coffee a week per person. Does this goof realize that that amounts to the equililent of 6 1/2 million cups of coffee that some small business will not be selling? Every dime they drain from the local economy puts small businesses out of business.

I am so sick of these mealy mouthed idiots justifying the plunder of our incomes. Oh no, there goes my serenity for the day. I have to realize that our sole purpose on earth is to serve the government and that they are the true owners of the fruits of our labor. Until I am beaten into line with the rest of the sheep, I'll never have a minute of mental peace, so I'm going to stop reading this thread.

[Go2Tex]

rhall:

I'm wondering the same things. Here's another example of government idiocy... Last year, here in WA state, they wanted to have meters installed on people's private wells so they could tax us for the water we take out of the ground. (Luckily, that didn't go anywhere, but there are still legislators who think it's a good idea.)

This year, our kind-hearted representatives in Olympia are introducing a bill to tax people who use studded tires in the winter time! Their idea is that studded tires cause more damage to the roads, so you will have to obtain a $100 permit in order to use studded tires! My question is this... if this law passes, some people will opt not to use studded tires in the winter because they can't afford the $100 permit, so how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) will be caused because people can't use the proper traction-tires?

I am sooooooo sick of these money hungry jerks contantly looking for ways to milk more and more money out of little guys to support their out-of-control government spending.

So, just opt out of studs and use chains. They're worse on the roads. Just put 'em on with the first snowflake and don't take 'em off until Easter. bwahahahaha

[Hennessy]

So, just opt out of studs and use chains. They're worse on the roads. Just put 'em on with the first snowflake and don't take 'em off until Easter. bwahahahaha

in social australia their tryin to get a toilet tax thru,every time you flush you pay,water shortages i think ,also you have to get a permit to cut down a tree,i like this one,when you register your car the govt also 3rd party insures your car pete