Q about a machine

[jbird]

Bob thanks a lot it is a pain to try and figure this stuff out but thanks to all the helpfull willing people here I am learning, thanks for taking the time to help.

Josh

PS Bob I think with all I have seen on this site your work is about as good as it gets sure wish I could see it in person will don't mean to carry on but I was just looking at some of it again wow.

[Art]

Hi Josh,

Adler makes great machines as Bob testifies. I could never afford one, so I kinda went the 441 route. The Germans had the philosophy of small frame, big motor, go like hell. In manufacturing, go fast is the rule. The 205s for a big machine were and are rather small, but they have been making them bigger now. Most of the Adler of today is Chinese, you can get a real Adler from Weaver (you'll need a wholesale account) but there are some respectable clones too. Cowboy makes them in even the longarm style and you can get those from Ryan Neel.

http://www.neelsaddlery.com/

You need to get to a show and see these machines. Artisan, LMC, Ferdco, Weaver, Neels, and sometimes Luberto's are at the major shows, but call ahead to see who will be there. Some companies like Campbell Bosworth only come to Big shows like Sheridan, Boot and Saddlemakers Roundup, and the Denver Market.

http://www.artisansew.com

http://www.cobrastitch.com

http://www.ferdco.com/

http://www.leathermachineco.com

http://www.leatherstitchers.com/classic.htm

http://www.campbell-bosworth.com/

I know the above list will generate more questions than it will answer, and still doesn't cover everything or everyone, but it is a start.

Art

Josh,

I don't know anything about sewing machines. About half the time Art is talking so far above my head I don't even see a shadow as he passes by. He is definitely the one to recomend a first machine! But these are the machines that I have and there is not much I can't sew with them. That is not to say that I am good with them because I'm not. But I'm learning and I'm happy with them. I have an Adler 205/370 and I can sew thin material (3-4 oz) with 69 or 92 thread or very heavy material (5/8" is no sweat) with 345 or 415 thread. It was my very first machine and I had never sewn a stitch in my life before getting that machine. I just love it! However, every time I want to change from sewing heavy material to lighter material, I have to change out the needle and then make a few practice runs to get my tension and stitch length adjustments made. It's a pain in the rear to make that radical of a thread change, but the machine will definitely handle them. I have since added an Artisan 797AB which I now leave set up to sew the lighter materials (2 oz) and I leave the Adler set up to sew the heavier materials. I sew 10-12 oz belts all the time with the Artisan. I usually use a 138 thread for belts, sometimes a 92...I like a smaller thread with a shorter stitch length. The Artisan 797AB will sew up to a 207 thread but I almost always use the Adler for that thread weight. The Artisan also has about a 1/2" foot lift, but it is not pratical to try to sew that heavy a material in that machine. Just bucause the foot will raise that high, doesn't mean you can sew that thick. If I had to have just one machine it would be the Adler...maybe because I've had it longer and have more confidence with it. I have no idea if this will be helpful or not...I hope so.

Bob

[neelsaddlery]

Art:

I am not sure this is accurate about the grinding of needles only on the groove side of the needle. I know that with all of the oscillating style machines that I have worked on, there is a definite difference in clearance between the needle and shuttle hook when you change the needle sizes. You could tell easily if the needle was ground asymetric by looking near the top of the needle where the shank is. You would see at that point that the needle would look "lopsided" on one side or the other if the grinding was done only on the groove side of the needle. The shank size of the needle is the same with two needles of the same needle system, regardless of size.

Ed is correct that there are spacer rings for the 441 machines offered in varying thicknesses by the manufacturers. I have also seen spacer shims offered for the 441 machines too. They look just like the spacer ring itself, but are stamped out of much thinner shim stock.

Also, if you look at the Adler 205, these machines come with an assortment of spacing shims with each machine sold for needles of differing thicknesses. The number of each needle size (180, 200, 230) is stamped on each shim. If the needles were ground in such a way as to compensate for the needle to shuttle clearance, then why the need for the shims in the first place?

Just my two cents worth.

Ryan O. Neel

Hi All,

Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

Art

[neelsaddlery]

Hello All:

For the 441 and 205 machines, the 794 needle system is the needle type that is used. I have never seen a needle in the 794 system in a LEATHER POINT that was smaller than a size 23.

However, in FABRIC POINT they do make them a bit smaller, as I have seen a size 22 in fabric point.

If anybody knows about leather point needles in the 794 system being offered in a size smaller than 23 in leather point, please let me know, as I would like to get some myself!!!!

Ryan O. Neel

[Handstitched]

G'day from downunder,

I have a 'Q Stitch Colt ' machine (441 clone) from Queensland, Australia.

It did take me a while to get all the adjustments just right after a LOT fiddling and test pieces, and (touchwood) it's working great, so, it would be a shame for me to adjust it all again for a different job and having to go through the whole process again...and again.I have learnt to do just about all sewing jobs on the 'big' machine ( a nice simple nick name) without having to constantly change needles , thread , tensions etc.For those who are more experienced than me ( I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the tool box ,) changing needles, constantly adjusting etc may be second nature to them.

For lighter leathers, I have a old Pfaff 60, I know its not a leather machine, however its ideal for sewing lighter leather , wallets , garment, and small projects etc. it can sew up to 2.5mm veg tan ( providing its not too stiff) with ease and I use an upholstery thread with a leather needle , and having 2 machines eliminates the need to to keep changing needles thread & tensions.

What can't be done on either machine, I hand stitch....which I still very much enjoy

All the best

Happy Sewing

[Tkleather1]

I also have a singer 31-15 and a Pfaff 130 I like the Pfaff but it is just a little too light for me I do alot of chaps that I stitch 2 to 3 layers of chap leather and then a peice of toolin leather on top of that in spots but if you are making just belts it would be a good little stitcher. However the singer is the way to go for a lightweight table machine in my opinion (if I can cram it under the foot it will wtitch it). I do also want to get a toro3k but I need to sell the Pfaff before I can even think about that.