Vinegaroon tutorial

[drphil]

Im brewing my roon as I.. type . One question for long time users who use it for knife sheaths (hope Chuck reads it ). Is there any way that vinegaroon might damage the steel? Should I take any additional precautions, (

eg. mentioned soda) or finnish it differently ?

Mat

Hey Mat,

I don't have any experience with knife sheaths. I am not sure if it would damage your steel. I have used a few snaps and other metal pieces in conjunction with 'rooned leather. I have found that snaps will rust and sometimes discolor after having been on the 'rooned leather after a few days. I would think that if you 'rooned it, applied the baking soda wash, let dray for a day or so, oil it, let it dry for a day or so that you would be good to go. When I saw the discoloration it was after doing all the steps in one day. Now the real question is, what would happen if the leather gets wet later and the knife is still in there? Would any acid still be there to leach out and destroy the knife? It is doubtful that the baking soda would neutralize ALL the acid. I suppose I would use a liner of some sort just as a precaution in those cases. Just a few thoughts. . .

[lonestar tactical]

First of all thanks to everyone for putting this together. First time brewer here....

I went to Wally world this afternoon and picked up a pack of 0000 Steel Wool from the hardware section - the kitchen section had the stuff with soap.

Picked up a gallon of distilled vinegar

Put in a couple of steel wool pads in mason jars - 2 per jar - and filled with vinegar

Put the lids back on with a hole punched to allow for venting of gas

Set outside covered to prevent rain or critters from messing with it. My garage stores my car and my HD - cant have my car smelling like vinegar... well I could but I would be driving alone lol

Now the waiting game begins.....

Side note - cost was 2.00 for a gallon of vinegar and 2.48 for a large pack of steel wook - so two mason jars worth of blackening agent (VG) for 4.48????? (I have enough steel wool and vinegar to make another 2 to 3 jars) Compared to Fiebing USMC Black at 24.99 a quart retail or 15.00 wholesale???? What a cost saver and talk about being able to control quality.

Thanks again to all.

Be safe,

Doc

[MADMAX22]

As far as it ruining steel knives and such, I think the trick is to go thru all the process first then make sure it is fully dry before you do anything with it. I have a roon sheath for my multi tool. This also has one of the tandy black belt clips on it. The gerber mutli tool has been stored in this thing for the last few years with occasional use and there is no rust or anything else of that matter. The belt clip looks fine as well.

[Bard Skye]

Hey Mat,

I don't have any experience with knife sheaths. I am not sure if it would damage your steel. I have used a few snaps and other metal pieces in conjunction with 'rooned leather. I have found that snaps will rust and sometimes discolor after having been on the 'rooned leather after a few days. I would think that if you 'rooned it, applied the baking soda wash, let dray for a day or so, oil it, let it dry for a day or so that you would be good to go. When I saw the discoloration it was after doing all the steps in one day. Now the real question is, what would happen if the leather gets wet later and the knife is still in there? Would any acid still be there to leach out and destroy the knife? It is doubtful that the baking soda would neutralize ALL the acid. I suppose I would use a liner of some sort just as a precaution in those cases. Just a few thoughts. . .

I haven't tried any vinegargoon myself as yet. I just heard about it and have been chasing down all of the references to it I can find on this site.

In other posts, it's been said that you don't want to over neutralize the leather. Leather is *supposed* to have an acidic pH, and over neutralizing will cause it to crack and deteriorate after a relatively short time.

I haven't made very many sheaths yet, but I have a good friend who is a Master Bladesmith. (I'm trying to get my sheaths good enough to go with *his* blades!) He's always told me that a sheath is for *carrying* a blade, NOT storing it. Given the slightest provocation, leather will pick up moisture and trap it inside with the knife, causing rusting, pitting, and discoloration. This is especially true with carbon steel blades.

I would think that if the leather is properly dried and oiled, the vinegaroon would not cause any real problems.

Just my 2 cents worth... That and another buck will get ya a cup of coffee.

Skye

[Sovran81]

Has anyone used this process for whips? The strands are little more than top grain and the strength of the leather is critical. I like the idea of a cheap deep black but any weakness developed either immediately or over time would not be good.

[TomG]

Hi all,

I've read pretty much all of the posts on making and using the Vig and seems that there are a number of ways and methods to use this stuff.

2 weeks ago, I took some old 00 steel wool pads I've had for years and put in a gallon jug. Poured about 2 qts of new vinegar on top and let it sit, shaking it up every few days.

Then, using paper coffee filter, I filtered the almost black liquid to get rid of the fine metal left over. I was left with a very dark liquid.

After letting it sit a couple of days it had not cleared so I decided to try it anyway. I dipped a strip of veg-tan into it and within seconds, I had a very black strap. I let it soak for about 10 miutes to make sure it went all of the way though,

I took it out and dipped it into a solution of 4 tablespoons of baking soda in about a quart and a half of water (half full 2 liter soda bottle). I didn't see any bubbles. After about 10 minutes, I took it out and washed it thoroughly.

It smelled like dead fish. I let it dry overnight and it still smelled bad. I put it back in the soda and got some bubbles. Let it sit for about an hour and then washed it again. Now is smells like wet leather.

My Vig still smelled a little like vinegar. So I added another steel wool pad. Within an hour, the almost black solution was clear and has a mass of steel wool floating near the top. I'll let it sit and see how it does over the next few days.

So - Long story and here are the questions:

1) Should the Vig always smell like vinegar and steel?

2) How long should the soda dip be done?

3) Should there be a smell after dipping?

Thanks

Tom

Edited November 6, 2011 by TomG

[Ken Cook]

I see this thread is from November, but does anyone have an answer to the last questions, Tom's questions?

1) Should the Vig always smell like vinegar and steel?

2) How long should the soda dip be done?

3) Should there be a smell after dipping?

Thanks, Ken

[robs456]

IIRC:

1) Should the Vig always smell like vinegar and steel?

The smell will be minimized by saturating the vinegar with iron, always use more than you think you need (unless experienced).

2) How long should the soda dip be done?

Very quickly or the leather will be 'burned'.

3) Should there be a smell after dipping?

It always is when I 'roon projects, but then I tend to fail no.1 above...

The smell wears of with time though.

[LederRudi]

the whole process is after all to have the iron dissolved by the acetic acid in the vinegar to produce ferric acetate - which by the way can be purchased in crystal form from science supply companys, if you don't want to fuss with making the mixture...

Hi Chuck, I'm inclined to take this shortcut. Would I still have to rinse the leather in bicarbonate?

Best regards,

Rudi

P.S: I enjoyed your video on making holsters a lot!

[ChuckBurrows]

Rudi - yes I would and you can also use ferric nitrate crystals if you cannot find ferric acetate - with the ferric nitrate (which FWIW is historically documented at least as far back as the 18th Century) I start out at a mix of 10 parts distilled water and 1 part crystals - if not strong enough add some more crystals, a bit at a time, until you get a good mix.

[LederRudi]

Chuck, thanks for the hint at possible replacing ferric acetate by ferric nitrate. It seems in fact to be very difficult to get my hands on ferric acetate.

Rudi

[Boriqua]

I live in a very small place would it be alright to put it under the stairs outside in Arizona. It's 111 now

[Wishful]

I keep my Vinegaroon in the garage in SO Cal - gets pretty hot i there. When I first make a batch I store it in a mason jar with a loose fitting lid so no pressure builds.

[Boriqua]

Thanks Wishful!!

One more question. I went through the thread again but maybe I missed it. Is there a proper recipe .. I have filled my 2qt jar with vinegar and put in 2 00 steel wool pads. Its day 3 and they are pretty much gone. I put in another one today .. is it something you just learn over time or is there a formula like .. 4 wool pads to a quart of vinegar. Sounds like a stupid question even as I type it .. but if you know

[jacket potato]

I made mine very first time vinegaroon based on information in this thread. I also could not figure out a proper recipe, so I just put 4 steel wool pads in 2 litres of vinegar. The wool was with soap so I had to wash it with washing up liquid.

Left it for 1 month or even a bit more, and then filtered it. Then left for a few more days with opened lid and filtered again. Here what I got:

I am not sure if it is supposed to be red color but it works perfectly and gives deep black.

[malanoche]

I started reading this thread for being curious to what Vinegaroon is. I'm new to leather working trying to find what works best for my projects by research then trial and error. Now with various method's, techniques, materials and personal preferences, it can be a bit daunting to choose which way to go. After reading all of the above, vinegaroon, blackening by chemical reaction vs. dyeing with its drawbacks, the choice is crystal clear, vinegaroon. Thank you all for sharing, especially those who shared their fails so others don't have do the same.

Adios

[uscglechief]

I have made several sheaths and holsters out of my vingaroon, but am always left with a VERY strong smell afterwards. I have tried the baking soda baths but they don't really seem to help about the only thing that does help seems to be time, oil and top coats.

Question: do most on here paint or otherwise apply the vingagroon to their project? I have been submerging the project and allowing it to soak, which maybe part or all of my problem.

As always feedback/advice is appreciated.

Jesse

[Sully241]

If I do NOT neutralize the vinegaroo with soda, only rinse with clear tap water, will the acid in the leather Holster deteriorate the blueing on the gun using the holster?

[mlapaglia]

If I do NOT neutralize the vinegaroo with soda, only rinse with clear tap water, will the acid in the leather Holster deteriorate the blueing on the gun using the holster?

I cant say for sure that it wont. I do know that a belt I failed to neutralize came back later with two of the holes on the billet ripped out. Cant say for sure but it could have been the acid. Since then I always do the backing soda and I dont soak the leather. Just dip it a few times or for belts I run it through the 'roon 3 times.

[ChuckBurrows]

If I do NOT neutralize the vinegaroo with soda, only rinse with clear tap water, will the acid in the leather Holster deteriorate the blueing on the gun using the holster?

Veg/Bark Tan leather itself is acidic - generally about 4.5 on the PH scale so over time it will cause wear on the bluing of a gun especially if it gets wet or in high humidity circumstances, whether you use vinegar blacking or any other type "dye". As Thad Rybka, master holster maker, used to state in his catalog - if you want to prevent wear on bluing than leave the gun in the box....

and again in so far as the odor goes 1) make sure the solution has used up all of the acetic acid (when the steel/iron begins to rust rather than dissolve is a good sign) 2) Let the mix gas off if need be - acetic acid is quite volatile and usually gasses off in just a few days especially if you stir the solution now and again 3) Dipping is fine but there is no real need to let it soak for more than a few seconds 4) let the dyed product air well - I put mine outside in the shade where it will get plenty of breeze or in front of a fan and let hang for 24 hours at least.

As far as the color of the mix - it can be anywhere from a coal black to a sort of rusty red, and as long as it is doing the job, the color of the mix itself doesn't matter since the process is a chemical change from mixing iron/steel with the tannins in the leather - as others have noted you can do the same thing by soaking the iron/steel in plain water until it dissolves - that process just takes longer than using the vinegar...

[jmstricklin]

I've looked at this thread a dozen times or more & I'm finally going through the steps, but I didn't see the mix for the soda bath. Is it 1:1? 2:1? 1Tsp : 1 5gal bucket? Just want to makes sure that I'm stopping the chemical reaction correctly.

[mlapaglia]

I use 1 tablespoon baking soda to one quart water.

Don't let it soak too long as too much baking soda can harm the leather.

I dip for about 20 secs and the. Rinse In cold water. Then in front of a fan to dry for 15-24 hours.

Oil and let sit another 24 hours.

[jmstricklin]

Awesome, thank you for clarifying that. Had a mishap with my 'groon last night, after I covered the steel wool with the vinega, I forgot to loosen the lid to let the fumes/bubbles escape. Pressurized the jar enough to push the lid up & had vinegar all over one of my granite slabs. Wasn't too bad, couple tools don't have a flawless finish anymore, but that's about it.

[grumpyold]

Does all tooling would have to be done before dying?

[jrny4wrd]

OK. Seems plenty of info and read all comments on this, as far as I know. Question: Is it ok to just wipe the baking soda solution on? Can't dipping it effect the deepnes of the tooling imprint? I have never dipped for I mostly color with more than one. Also, one person mentioned a background color. Can I dye a whole item red and then block dye the top or paint vinigaroon over after?