first time gun buyer

[Bree]

Damn Bree I think I have seen another side of you!, You know your way around a Firearm ....I think I am Fallin in Love!LOL

Ha! Now comes the really hard question... Do you love ME or MY GUNS!!

:wtf:

[tonyc1]

I used a 686 that had been tuned up by a competent gunsmith for several years in competition and, within reason, the D/A was as smooth as silk and I didn't even notice the trigger weight . You just need good accurate loads that will impact where you point the gun and I believe in adjustable sights so the sights can be adjusted to coincide the the group on the target.

Tony

[Art]

Hi Holly,

Let her take an NRA course FIRST. If you want, you can borrow a wheelgun or two (big and small), an auto, and a shotgun from me and have the instructor show her about all of them. Let her choose style and then go shopping. Unless, knowing Holly, she has all of those. Call me.

Art

PLEASE no politics here!!!

My mom is looking to purchase a handgun for protection. She lives in a rural area, off the main road, and wants something easy to use, that will be kept at home. Two of her brothers have been giving her some advice, and even target practice, but I know there are some really knowledgeable people here that can help me pass some info on to her.

Dad occassionally goes on short-term mission trips, and Mom would feel more secure if she had something close by if needed. She's not afraid to learn, and not afraid to use it, and plans on taking some concealed weapon classes shortly. Though she's in her 60's, she's very athletic (has run the NYC Marathon, and runs every day still) and does most of the work on their horse farm.

For point of reference, we live in Virginia.

[JohnnyDingus]

Art,

Nice Offer!

vince

[wildrose]

LOL Art, you're a treat!

To be honest, there aren't ANY guns in my house...but there are a bunch of swords, a double headed Starfire axe, a pike, and several daggers...

[TwinOaks]

To be honest, there aren't ANY guns in my house...but there are a bunch of swords, a double headed Starfire axe, a pike, and several daggers...

Gives a whole new meaning to carrying "mace".

[TexasJack]

Handguns take practice. Lots of it to be any good. Best thing is to buy a PUMP SHOTGUN.

I was in a very large gun store one day and a lady came in wanting to buy a pistol. Very similar story to your mom's. The salesman told her what I just told you, and she just couldn't understand the point. So he took a Remington 870 off the rack and told her to watch the people in the store. Then he pumped it one time. EVERYBODY looked at him.

He said, "Suppose you're in your bedroom and you hear someone break in. You say, 'I've got a gun!' Maybe he believes you, maybe he doesn't. But, when you pump that first round into the chamber, HE WILL KNOW WHAT HE'S UP AGAINST!"

'Cause, the very best defensive weapon is the one you never actually have to use. And, if you do have to use it, point, click, and it will cut a very wide path in whoever needs to be stopped.

The sound of a pump shotgun is well known by every felon. That is why police and prison guards carry them.

Still don't believe me? A friend of mine got a job some years ago working as a prison guard. He was up on the wall and was bored. He started playing with his shotgun and accidentally opened the chamber. He had to then pump the round into it. Just after he did that, he noticed that the yard below had become very quiet. He looked down and all the prisoners had stopped whatever they were doing and were looking up at him.

The shot also doesn't carry very far - you won't hit a friendly neighbor by mistake. And it makes a big boom if you fire it into the air to scare off trouble. That's my $0.02.

[Bree]

Handguns take practice. Lots of it to be any good. Best thing is to buy a PUMP SHOTGUN.

I was in a very large gun store one day and a lady came in wanting to buy a pistol. Very similar story to your mom's. The salesman told her what I just told you, and she just couldn't understand the point. So he took a Remington 870 off the rack and told her to watch the people in the store. Then he pumped it one time. EVERYBODY looked at him.

He said, "Suppose you're in your bedroom and you hear someone break in. You say, 'I've got a gun!' Maybe he believes you, maybe he doesn't. But, when you pump that first round into the chamber, HE WILL KNOW WHAT HE'S UP AGAINST!"

'Cause, the very best defensive weapon is the one you never actually have to use. And, if you do have to use it, point, click, and it will cut a very wide path in whoever needs to be stopped.

The sound of a pump shotgun is well known by every felon. That is why police and prison guards carry them.

Still don't believe me? A friend of mine got a job some years ago working as a prison guard. He was up on the wall and was bored. He started playing with his shotgun and accidentally opened the chamber. He had to then pump the round into it. Just after he did that, he noticed that the yard below had become very quiet. He looked down and all the prisoners had stopped whatever they were doing and were looking up at him.

The shot also doesn't carry very far - you won't hit a friendly neighbor by mistake. And it makes a big boom if you fire it into the air to scare off trouble. That's my $0.02.

I am not a believer in this way of thinking. I never ever try to intimidate. I might succeed and then again I might fail. Maybe the attacker is on crack and doesn't care about the sound of the shotgun pumping. In any case, I have given away valuable information to the bad guy. I have given away my presence, my location, my armament type, my probable limitations etc.

I don't want to do that. If my firearm ever comes out, it is because use of deadly force is justified to stop a theat. And if that use is justified, I am immediately and without hesitation going to stop the threat. There is no bargaining or negotiation... no counterthreatening.... just action to stop the deadly threat posed to my life or the life of another.

If I am forced to mount my firearm, it's already too late for communication. My #1 thought is to save my own life and stop that threat. Communicating information about myself may very well increase the threat and I am not willing to do that when the threat level is already at "deadly".

It's possible that the bad guy could save a lot of pain or even death by immediately dropping his weapon and standing down the threat but I am not waiting around to see if that will happen. The moment my gun comes out, action is intended to follow.

I understand the power of the pump's sound. But I prefer to keep my shotgun in Condition 1 with safety on to reduce the time needed to bring the gun into action rather than add a step to try to frighten someone intent on killing me.

A different point of view on that issue.

[wildrose]

LOL TwinOaks....actually, that I don't have either...I guess for me it's about appearance. I won't get a bladed weapon unless I think it's attractive as well as potentially useful. Maces just don't do it for me personally. My fav is a replica of the sword from the Mask of Zorro (I'm a freak about Zorro, but that's another topic all together!)

Bree and TexasJack, I can see both sides. Personally I prefer to give someone a warning, so I like the pump sound line of thinking. But knowing Mom, she'd be in Bree's camp. Besides, if you don't stop the person invading your home (as an example), what's to stop them from preying on someone else?

[Shorts]

Bree and TexasJack, I can see both sides. Personally I prefer to give someone a warning, so I like the pump sound line of thinking. But knowing Mom, she'd be in Bree's camp. Besides, if you don't stop the person invading your home (as an example), what's to stop them from preying on someone else?

I agree with Bree's position on this for a conflict in public. If the situation has escalated to the point it is necessary to draw a weapon, it is to the point that one will be discharging a weapon.

How one reacts in public will be different than home defense. I do recommend having set drills and plans to address different scenarios. There are a variety of things a homeowner can do...stay put in the bedroom with a phone on 911 and lay in wait with your weapon until the threat leaves or escalates a confrontation. One can grab the 'night bag' (flash light, phone, keys, extra mags) and gun and go through the house/property to check it. It depends on the homeowners preference, training, a whole ball of factors. Its going to be a personal decision, all us interneters will monday morning quarterback a scenario but when something hits the fan, what matters is keeping you and your family safe within the law.

Now, the law. I suggest that VA home defense laws be read and reread. And they will be at a CCW class. Many states have implemented a Castle Doctrine which gives the homeowner no duty to retreat. Which means, its your property (home and land, but depends on your state laws), you can defend yourself with the force necessary to stop the threat that's endangering your life. Also noted can be the time of day. For example, Texas' laws especially recognizes that nighttime home defense is especially acceptable.

If you really want to cover yourself, find a lawyer in the area experienced in gun law and ask away. I strongly reiterate experienced in gun law. It is always prudent that gun owners, especially carriers, know the lawyers they can turn to should they need to make a call. It goes along with having car/house/liability insurance. A person must take the responsibility as a law-abiding gun owner to be mentally prepared, physically prepared, and financially prepared to use a gun for self defense.

[Bree]

Shorts is right on the money with the points concerning the law. Good post.

Being an armed citizen isn't for everyone. It is a heavy responsibility to own and carry a firearm. It necessitates a change in lifestyle and thinking. You can't be a hothead and be armed. You have to know a LOT about the laws of your state and any state that you visit while armed. You have to live in a state of preparedness when most people are happily oblivious to risks. You have to know your tools very very well because they have huge consequences for you and others if misused. Like I say, it isn't for everyone.

[TrooperChuck]

This has been a very interesting topic. My wife is petite and wants to get a CCW permit. I've been pondering what kind of handgun to get her and leaning towards a .357 revolver because of the wide range of ammo it can use.

Bree's comments about women needing to stop a threat BEFORE it reaches them are right on target. My wife is tough for her size, but the fact is that a 6 foot tall 220 pound guy has a huge advantage over her 4'10" hieght and 100 pound weight. Thanks for bringing that fact to our attention.

When it comes to the question of "Warning vs. No Warning", I think it depends on the circumstances. I totally agree if I present my firearm it is a last resort and done with the knowledge and determination that I may kill someone. As a retired law enforcement officer, who served on a SWAT team, I understand that some situations may call for verbal warnings/commands prior to firing, and some situations may call for immediate action without warning. I admit this comes from a law enforcement background, which can be different from the standard of review used in cases of private citizen personal protection. Because of their training and experience, officers tend to be held to a higher standard of review in the after-action court battles than a private citizen might be.

One thing I do believe is that warning SHOTS are never a good idea. Firing a shot off into the air or the ground simply wastes one of your bullets and isn't going to stop someone who is deranged, highly intoxicated, or extrememly desperate. Plus, I am solely responsible for every round that leaves the muzzle of my gun. If I fire a round off into the air it has to come down somewhere, and it may be somewhere I didn't want it to come down. I grant you that the odds of it coming down onto some innocent person's head is slim, but it HAS happened.

Having said all that, I can personally relate to what TexasJack said... I've been on the receiving end of the sound of a shotgun shell being racked into the chamber. I will NEVER forget that sound! Fortunately, the bad guy gave up when he realized there was another Trooper with me and his chances of surviving the gun fight weren't as good as he thought.

I enjoy reading the various thoughts, comments, and opinions here even if they are different than mine. Thanks for posting them.

[wildrose]

Trooper Chuck has brought up a point I failed to mention: my mother is about 5 foot tall and doesn't weigh over 110 lbs, so although she's fit, she IS little.

[The Major]

A woman's self defense needs differ from those of an ordinary man. Normally a woman must stop the bad guy before he can get to her because she is at a big disadvantage in hand-to hand combat. Consequently, as far as handguns are concerned, a woman needs to carry the largest caliber that she can handle. If at all possible I recommend .45 ACP. Second would be the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. cartridges. The recoil of the .45 ACP is actually less than that of the .357 Magnum but both are within the range of almost all women with some training and practice. Both have substantial stopping power.

Best for the situation described is a 12 Ga shotgun with either slugs or 00 buckshot. I would add a Knoxx Spec Ops Recoil Reducing stock. The stock will absorb about 75% of the considerable recoil of the 12 Ga. That makes it a doable option for any woman and extremely powerful. A shotgun slug is just about the strongest stopper you will find.

Shotguns must be aimed so practice is necessary. A shotgun with a slug is not unlike a rifle in that respect. Buckshot will expand giving you some leeway but of course the expansion reduces the effectiveness as fewer pellets hit the target and penetrate to vital regions. At ranges found in home defense the expansion won't make much of a difference and buckshot is highly effective.

Bottom line women need BIG self defense power to stop big attackers before the BG can get to them. Go to the range and rent handguns of different calibers and find the biggest caliber that she can fire with reasonable comfort and accuracy. Then find a make/model that suits her taste. For shotguns... make sure you get a 12 Ga that supports the recoil reducing Knoxx Spec Ops stock. Just trust me on this one. The difference is HUGE.

Myself, I have a Springfield Armory XD 45 Compact, a Ruger SP-101 .357 Magnum, and a Keltec P3AT .380 as a backup pocket pistol. For home defense I have a Mossberg 590 Mariner 12 Ga and a Rock River Arms AR-15. For plinking at the range I have a fun gun... the Ruger 10/22.

Oh... don't forget pepper spray. Fox Labs... 4 oz can is perfect. Fox is top rated... what the cops and military use... really strong stuff. She should carry it everywhere she goes. She is much more likely to use pepper spray then a gun. Get the best that is legal and available in your state. Pay extra to get the best. Even the threat of using it will stop most would be attackers. When they look down the bore of the spray nozzle they think twice.

I have used it 4 different times and I believe that it has saved my life.

What Bree, no Frags in your arsenal?

Anyway, I agree with not relying on the intimidation factor. Aside from all the above mentioned, if it all comes down to it, you just gave the intruder a chance to draw down on you.

But Bree is right on with anyone (not just women) who shoots, you should use the largest caliber that you can comfortably handle. You can always use specialty loads if need be.

One thing I do not recommend is a 22 or 32, it wont stop anything that is on drugs or pumped up with anything, it will just piss them off.

If she can handle it, a 357, or 45. 9mm is often questionable as to stopping power as well.

Great to hear she will be taking training courses.

Great, now that I have read all this I feel like going to the range.

[Bree]

What Bree, no Frags in your arsenal?

LOL!!

Frags like ExtremeShock or frags like pineapple grenades?? Don't believe in ExtremeShock or other frangibles. If it doesn't get in at least 12 " or darn close I don't use it. My handgun ammo is Federal LE HST, Federal LE EFMJ, and Corbon DPX. The shotty takes Federal LE Tactical Buckshot and Brenneke slugs. The AR takes Black Hills and Corbon DPX while the 10/22 consumes mostly Stingers and Velocitors or anything I can get on the cheap that is copper coated/plated to keep the lead fouling down a bit.

Not allowed to carry pineapples here in NY. Restrictive state you know!! Plus the object is to STOP the BG not blow him to smithereens!!!

[TwinOaks]

Plus the object is to STOP the BG not blow him to smithereens.

What, rapidly accelerating the BG in several directions doesn't count as stopping the threat?

+2 on your ammo choices Bree. The Fed. EFMJ is some impressive stuff.

[Shorts]

Not allowed to carry pineapples here in NY. Restrictive state you know!! Plus the object is to STOP the BG not blow him to smithereens!!!

I know we're not talking about fruit, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. Especially when referencing NY and guns

[TexasJack]

... If my firearm ever comes out, it is because use of deadly force is justified to stop a theat. And if that use is justified, I am immediately and without hesitation going to stop the threat. ...

Trust me, in Texas the law is very much on the side of the homeowner. Chances are very good that anyone breaking into a house (or even breaking into a car) in Texas is likely to be shot. I have no sympathy for the bad guys and I don't have to reach far to get my hands on a firearm anywhere on my property.

The point I was trying to make was that the shotgun is a much easier defense tool than a pistol. Not as sexy, but extremely effective.

In the case of being behind the door, it's entirely possible that the sound on the other side is a 'friendly' - maybe her son. Warn first, then shoot if necessary.

Wounded burglars can sue you. Shotguns make VERY big holes. (12 ga. 00 buck is the equivalent of being shot by 22 pistols at the same time.) You don't have much worry about that basketball-sized spread missing vital organs.

Keeping a gun around with a round in the chamber is a very bad idea, unless you really know what you are doing. (In this case, Mom is getting a first gun.) If there are kids or grandkids around, it's even more dangerous.

I'm not arguing against you; just illustrating some points to consider in the decision.

[Bree]

Trust me, in Texas the law is very much on the side of the homeowner. Chances are very good that anyone breaking into a house (or even breaking into a car) in Texas is likely to be shot. I have no sympathy for the bad guys and I don't have to reach far to get my hands on a firearm anywhere on my property.

The point I was trying to make was that the shotgun is a much easier defense tool than a pistol. Not as sexy, but extremely effective.

In the case of being behind the door, it's entirely possible that the sound on the other side is a 'friendly' - maybe her son. Warn first, then shoot if necessary.

Wounded burglars can sue you. Shotguns make VERY big holes. (12 ga. 00 buck is the equivalent of being shot by 22 pistols at the same time.) You don't have much worry about that basketball-sized spread missing vital organs.

Keeping a gun around with a round in the chamber is a very bad idea, unless you really know what you are doing. (In this case, Mom is getting a first gun.) If there are kids or grandkids around, it's even more dangerous.

I'm not arguing against you; just illustrating some points to consider in the decision.

Yep... familiar with the Texas law and defense of property rights there... the fortunes of old Joe Horn who shot two guys robbing the neighbor's home. Too bad we don;t have that here in NY.

And I agree 100% about the shotgun. It is the home defense weapon of choice. The best load is slugs but if you are urban then you have to ratchet down because of overpenetration. I am in a tightly packed urban environment and I have ratcheted down to #1 buckshot in my shotty.

There is a debate about the shooting thru walls and doors issue and I have always sided with the not shooting unless I absolutely know what my target is. That isn't possible shooting thru doors or walls in 99% of cases. I can imagine some circumstances were I might do so but they would be something like the BG's shooting at me through the walls. Other than that kind of thing I just don't see myself shooting at a blind target. I am too fearful of harming an innocent.

We have no kids in the house or coming over to the house so the issue of unintended use by kids doesn't exist for us. If you have children, new ballgame. It is essential to protect against unintended use of your firearms. There is no disagreement there.

With kids around only the firearms concealed on my immediate person would be in condition 1. All others would be in a gun safe that the kids have no access to. Kids make self defense much more difficult. Planning and process are critically important when kids are around. For example, they must not ever see you open the safe lest they get the combination and gain access. Your gun handling process must preclude this from happening.

A new gun owner should get training and a lot of it... good quality training from professionals... so that he or she understands the operation of the firearm and responsibilities of gun ownership. Trained people can and should carry in condition 1 as it is the best state of readiness. Every second saved in a deadly force situation can mean the difference between life and death. But if you are more of a danger to yourself and others in condition 1, then the person should ratchet down to a lower state of readiness and train for the higher state.

I don't think that we really disagree.

[TexasJack]

I don't know how Joe Horn was portrayed elsewhere. The rag thats barely fit to line birdcages - Houston Chronicle - did their best to bury him. Probably 99% of the people in Texas consider him a hero.

For those who didn't hear the story, Joe Horn is an older fella that lives in Pasadena which is just east of Houston. Largely industrial/blue collar area. One day he spotted 2 guys carrying stuff out of his neighbor's house. (Both turned out to be illegal aliens with long rap sheets.) He called 9-1-1 and reported it, then took a gun over and ordered them to put the stuff down and put their hands up or he'd shoot. They didn't comply, so he did. What he did isn't really covered under Texas laws, but the grand jury refused to indict him.

While I totally support what Joe did, the poor guy was hit with all sorts of legal problems, was threatened by gangs and such, and was completely harassed by the press. He would have been far better off not shooting, even though that would have been worse for the rest of us.

[Shorts]

Probably 99% of the people in Texas consider him a hero.

Which is exactly why he was no-billed - the people.

Mr Horn made decisions I would have done differently, but I wasn't there that particular night. And I have had my own nights chasing BGs from our property. But this very case is a prime example of "Rather be judged by 12...".