Cementing leather during holster assembly

[Bree]

General George Patton's Colt 45 Peacemaker.

Patton's .357 Magnum

Both of his sidearms have ivory grips. Now I wouldn't want to insinuate that the General was a "pimp". At least not to his face!!!

[Rayban]

I've considered being a pimp before....but not if I have to carry a fancy piece like that.....nahhhhh....forget it....

[Jordan]

Correct me if I am misinformed but isn't Elmers Glue All a different formulation than Elmers White Glue. I have always wondered if Tandy Leather Weld wasn't just repackaged Elmers. My...my I do enjoy a fine barnyard strut so early in the mornin. Fancy smancy don't really matter if you can't put the rounds where they need to be faster than the other guy.

[Lobo]

Interesting. I write a post, sharing an experience that others might find useful. Then I get "in your face" responses, to which I reply (admittedly, a little off the cuff).

Notwithstanding Texas Rangers (well known for fancy gear, part of the tradition and image) and General George S. Patton (a brilliant mind coupled with an ego out of proportion to the world he was born in, either in the Patton incarnation or the previous warrior-kings he believed himself to have been in prior lives), there a few practical realities to the discussion.

1. The primary purpose of cementing holsters during assembly is simply to hold everything in place until it has been sewn. The stitching is what holds everything together over the life of the piece. While there may be certain applications in which the cement serves a more long-term purpose, those are very limited and of no consequence in most applications. In fact, in my original post I pointed out that the glued piece survived saturation with water and the wet-forming process with no problems, so the following responses to the contrary were obviously opinion rather than experience talking.

2. Squeaking leather results from either (a) a piece that has not been broken in as yet, or ( a piece that was never properly finished. All holsters go through a break-in period (some designs more than others) during which the holster adjusts to the belt, to the contours of the user's body, to the weapon, etc., and during that break-in period there will be some minor movement that can involve stressing at seams and friction between leather panels; this is normal and must be expected. In the other vein (, quite a few holsters (including several well-known makers) are formed and surface-treated "for pretty", with little or no attempt to provide for long-term protection of the leather. Leather consists of fibrous material throughout its structure that can readily absorb moisture from the atmosphere, from the user's body, etc., and the fibers will swell and contract repeatedly during moisture absorption and drying. Treating the leather with a product that will prevent, or minimize, these tendencies is essential to the long-term usefulness of the piece (the most commonly used product is neatsfoot oil, which infuses the fibers and voids, remaining there for the life of the piece, protecting against moisture absorption while also providing a degree of flexibility and in most applications minimizing friction that results in squeaking).

There are members of this forum ranging from new hobbyists, to full-time leather craftsmen, to serious artists. There are degrees of expertise in every aspect of the craft, and we can all learn something from each other.

For anyone to say that a particular method or technique is the "only" way to accomplish the task might be absolutely right, it might be ignorance of other methods or techniques, or it might be simple arrogance.

There are many fine products available from the supply houses, and most will do a very good job when used as intended. However, many of those products are (as most specialty items are) overpriced for the purpose, and some are undoubtedly nothing more than re-labeled products presented as leather-crafting specialties when they are in use under other trade names in other industries.

When I started my little hobby/business there was no internet, there was no Leatherworker.net forum, and there was very little available to guide the beginner. Most of us learned by trial and error, working through each aspect of every project again and again until we learned what worked and what didn't work. I am still learning, especially as I receive orders for products and designs that I have never dealt with before. Frequently, right in the middle of a project I will have a thought on design or on methods, and I keep a notepad handy (if I don't write things down my old grampa brain doesn't always retain the thought for long).

If I had had the opportunity to apprentice myself to a master craftsman, or even hang around his shop and help, I might have jumped at it. Such opportunities never arose in my life. So, here I am, semi-retired with a little hobby/business that has grown to a point at which it is now strictly a business. I have leased a shop in which to work, I am shipping about a hundred units per month (not on the scale of some makers, but nothing to sneeze at), and my products are featured in a few stores.

I am not an artist; I cannot compete with the producers of some of the beautiful work we see on this forum. I do not delude myself into thinking that I am a master of this craft. I am nothing more than a reasonably well-experienced practicioner of the craft with modestly well-developed skills and a reasonably good understanding of what works in certain applications and what doesn't. I produce several standard designs and I produce to customer designs when requested. I produce a good quality product at a reasonable price and deliver it to the customer in a matter of a few weeks, rather than months, which has resulted in a following of customers that order again and again and refer others to me.

Occasionally I find an opportunity to share a thought or two with others, which they may accept or reject. They may even question my thoughts legitimately, but when it becomes "in your face" I have been known to respond in kind.

Enough said.

[K-Man]

I didn't see any of the responses here given as "in your face." I believe there would be no doubt in your mind if that was the case. You were questioned legitimately as to the validity of your claim with respect to the Elmer's glue. And in short order, it was shown to be an unsafe way to manufacture an item such as a holster. The responses by myself and Jeff were not opinions, but rather experience talking. It was suggested that when you have a thought on designs or methods to do some research. You might be surprised at the knowledge base here on LW, even from those with less than 37 years of experience. (There are some here with more than 37 years of experience also.) In this industry, in particular the fashioning of holsters, there are a variety of ways to make that holster. In some aspects though, it's done the same across the board.

If you want to continue to manufacture holsters in the way you do, that's your perogative. If you wish to extoll your knowledge here on LW, just be aware there may be folks here who know better than you.

Let me give you an example. I want to make some horse tack, in particular, breast collars. So I read, looked at pics, and ordered/purchased a couple as samples. I came up with what I thought was the right design, etc. I was pretty proud of what I had made. I mean, it looked good (somewhat fanciful) and everything. I sent pics to one of the mods here who does a lot of work in horse tack. In short order, he pointed out that there were some flaw/issues with it. After reviewing what he said, I took a closer look at it, and I could see right away where I had screwed up.

The moral of the story is you may think this Elmer glue deal is the right deal, and it looks good, etc. But in reality, it's not the right way to do it. You can either accept that or not - that's your decision.

[JohnnyDingus]

I don't have the experience that all of you do, so I am not comeing from the knowledge of this leather working that you have.

I got started late in life doing leather work and do so want to learn.

So far I am just making leather holsters for my cowboy action shooting, but eventually I would like to get good enough to sell some.

I appreciate the knowledge that all of you have and the experience, but I also would like to know that I don't need a certain expensive glue if some other will work as well.

For those of you that have to have ultra quiet leather goods for your customers safety I would be a little concerned and might try a test myself. But only if you thought you might want to change the way you make your holsters.

For those out there like me we like to hear all this discussion from all of you experienced makers without the negative tones.

I don't have the thousand of dollars in tools or equipment, and I haven't been through all the hides of leather that most of you have. I pick up thoughts on doing my holsters from all of you even if your doing a different style of holster. I thank all of you for a good discussion.

Lobo thanks for posting this as I don't have axcess to a press to form my holsters and see if the type of glue I am using will hold when under that kind of pressure.

I thank all of you for contributing your thoughts as it makes my learning curve shorter in my old age.

vince

[pete]

maybe I missed the entire slugfest but.........what does it matter if Elmer's works or not? Wasn't the point of using it just to stick the thing together until it could be stitched?

Please enlighten me someone if I missed it all together.

pete

[Dwight]

Just addressed a post in the "sewing leather" category dealing with cementing leather prior to sewing, and I thought I would pass on another little time-and-money-saving item I discovered.

Hey, . . . thanks, Lobo, . . . I normally use regular old carpenter's contact cement, . . . (it does wonders for a stuffy head early in the morning ), . . but I did make one holster one time with Elmer's white carpenter glue. It didn't do to suit me so I ripped it apart, . . . literally pulling the glue off the leather, . . . and that was when I decided that contact cement was my friend and I was "sticking" to it.

If I understand you correct, . . . this is the yellowish glue that you used, . . . not the white stuff. I just may give that a try, . . . but the white stuff is reserved for the wood shop and/or paper.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Ian]

Wasn't the point of using it just to stick the thing together until it could be stitched?

Please enlighten me someone if I missed it all together.

pete

True, but it is more than that. You need your edges to stay together even after they're stiched so that when they're burnished and painted they appear as a single edge. Also, two side cements such as contact and Barge adhere instantly, so there's no drying time. Personally, I liked the old Barge (before they changed the formula) the best because of the longer working time. Since they changed it, I use regular hardware store contact cement.

If I'm just holding stuff together for a quick repair, while I stitch it, I sometimes even use double sided tape.

[Shorts]

I've used some Elmer's wood glue for a bit on holsters when I was out of leather specific glue. Unfortunately Elmer's is water soluble. The method I mold my holsters with, water soluble glue makes for a terrible bonding agent, especially once the holster is dried and ready for dye. Aside from holding the holster together while being sewn I've noticed the glue does the job of fusing the leather together at the edges so that the burnished edge does not crack, at the least.